Test frame advice please

[Ross]

I have a hive that appeared to be queenless a little over a month ago, no brood, eggs etc. I have tried several test frames and they have produced nothing the bees just rear the brood and it hatches out. They aren't making QC's and there are no laying workers. They are quite placid when inspecting and don't seem to behave like a queenless colony. If there is a queen why isn't she laying?

I know it is very late in the year to be messing about with Queens but I don't want to lose the colony over winter as there are loads of bees, just apparently no queen. Now I'm also intrigued and want to know what they are up to!

I am using polyhives and my other queens are still laying and the bees are still bringing in loads of pollen and honey. These bees are still bringing in and storing loads of honey too.

I would appreciate any advice as I am a bit stumped on this one.

Ross

 

[oliver90owner]

You likely don't need any advice on test frames other than there is a queen present.

Possibly a nosemic queen, but atypical as you report they are foraging well.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Failed supercedure. Virgin?

 

[beeno]

Hi Ross,
I had a colony like that until recently. Luckily for me, queenie laid a few eggs following my one and only test frame, so I know she is there. Based on my own experience, limited as it is, I would say you have a queen in there that the 'all knowing bees' are happy with. My hypothesis is that my hive has enough bees for the time being (large numbers hatched in August) and will start brooding later this year or wait until spring. Brood rearing uses up lots of stores, so such colonies are the ones to watch for low store levels early on. This colony is out of sync with my other colonies as far as brood rearing is concerned and we have one like that at our association too. Brood rearing is what shortens the life of bees, so hopefully they will stay the course! Good luck with yours.

 

[sharonh]

Are you sure there is no Queen?

If Queen is there, she might not lay until all brood from another queen has emerged.

If you treated for varroa, that can stop the Queen for a while.
Also this time of the year, queens slow down on laying anyway.
If they are calm, it sounds very like she is there some where.

The only other time I've seen bees calm, without a queen, is with laying workers, but you said there are no eggs at all, so wouldn't think your in that position.

Could you have just missed the Queen on inspection, they can be good playing hide n seek..
When did you do your last full inspection, and why did you suspect that they were Q-

 

[Amari]

Thank god someone else is willing to swap kit and bees between colonies when needs be (see current thread on Personal Hygiene )

 

[Ross]

Are you sure there is no Queen?

If Queen is there, she might not lay until all brood from another queen has emerged.

If you treated for varroa, that can stop the Queen for a while.
Also this time of the year, queens slow down on laying anyway.
If they are calm, it sounds very like she is there some where.

The only other time I've seen bees calm, without a queen, is with laying workers, but you said there are no eggs at all, so wouldn't think your in that position.

Could you have just missed the Queen on inspection, they can be good playing hide n seek..
When did you do your last full inspection, and why did you suspect that they were Q-

We haven't treated for varroa, I normally just oxalic acid in the spring unless they need it.

The queen wasn't laying when we took off the honey (ie no brood sealed or otherwise) we had just moved house so I hadn't inspected for about a month before that. We moved the bees after taking off the honey, so that wasn't the cause.

When I noticed the problem she should have been laying, if there was no brood now without the history I wouldn't be all that bothered.

The frames were left after all the brood had emerged just in case something happened.

I could easily have missed the queen on inspection, I am not great at spotting queens at the best of times and normally rely on if there are eggs everything is okay. The thought of carefully going through each frame trying to find a queen that might not be there would drive me nuts.

Thank god someone else is willing to swap kit and bees between colonies when needs be (see current thread on Personal Hygiene )

Er yes, I read that with interest, given that bees drift between hives with apiaries I think some precautions are a little over the top. That said my apiary is a little more disorganised with old frames and hives than I would like, if only there was more time

Ross

 

[sharonh]

We haven't treated for varroa, I normally just oxalic acid in the spring unless they need it.

The queen wasn't laying when we took off the honey (ie no brood sealed or otherwise) we had just moved house so I hadn't inspected for about a month before that. We moved the bees after taking off the honey, so that wasn't the cause.

When I noticed the problem she should have been laying, if there was no brood now without the history I wouldn't be all that bothered.

The frames were left after all the brood had emerged just in case something happened.

I could easily have missed the queen on inspection, I am not great at spotting queens at the best of times and normally rely on if there are eggs everything is okay. The thought of carefully going through each frame trying to find a queen that might not be there would drive me nuts.



Er yes, I read that with interest, given that bees drift between hives with apiaries I think some precautions are a little over the top. That said my apiary is a little more disorganised with old frames and hives than I would like, if only there was more time

Ross

I know what you mean Ross, but if the bees are calm, and working, there is every chance she is in there.

I wouldn't go through all the frames now either , getting on in the season.
Could end up squashing the Queen, if there
I would keep a close eye on it. You can tell alot from observing the hive.
Watch for pollen loads going in, numbers of bees and activity at entrance.
Was the Queen a new Queen ( this years ) or older. Was she previously laying well. Can understand you are anxious and I would be the same.
Some times failure to make Q cells on a test frame is because the colony thinks ( or thought at the time you introduced the frame) that it has a queen - in other words there is or was a source of queen pheromone .
It's reasonable to expect a new queen to start laying in 3 weeks, at the most 4..
Non laying queens can be difficult to find.
Have you fed? and did you check that the queen has room to lay.
You could try another test frame but if they do build Q cells, have you a another queen to give them, as too late for them to have success getting their own.
And to be successful in re queening , you must find the source of the queen pheromone and eliminate it. You need to search for that queen and get rid providing you are convinced she is never going to lay. Then re queen with a viable laying queen.
How long all together without any eggs from this queen?

 

[sharonh]

Sorry Ross,
Was meaning to ask, how many test frames have you tried?
I wouldn't rule out,until at least 3 test frames, one a week for 3 weeks.

 

[HM Honey]

given that bees drift between hives with apiaries I think some precautions are a little over the top.

not precautions Ross....just my OCD

 

[HM Honey]

Thank god someone else is willing to swap kit and bees between colonies when needs be (see current thread on Personal Hygiene )

Amari....stop being a tit... You have your ways, I have mine. If the way another beek works bothers you so much, i suggest you might want to get more things to do in your life....

 

[itma]

We haven't treated for varroa, I normally just oxalic acid in the spring unless they need it.

... I think some precautions are a little over the top. That said my apiary is a little more disorganised with old frames and hives than I would like, if only there was more time

Ross

Ross, this might be relevant or not, and it'd be hard to do anything about it at this time of year.
But ...
"Old frames" just raised my eyebrow!
Any *brood* comb over 3 years old is too old for comfort. Black comb (someone reckons when it blocks the light when held up against the sun) has reached the stage that it is a bee-health liability. Regularly swapping some comb out is one way of refreshing it - a Bailey change or a shook swarm is more appropriate if it hasn't been gradually refreshed.
Frames themselves could however go on for years, but do need a good scrape and a blowtorch scorching before getting new foundation fitted.
But old *brood* comb is more liability than asset.



Varroa. How have you been monitoring the need for treatment?
And Oxalic. It would need to be mid-winter NOT "Spring". To work properly, it has to be done when there is *no* sealed brood - which ain't the case in what I think of as "Spring".

 

[Amari]

Amari....stop being a tit... You have your ways, I have mine. If the way another beek works bothers you so much, i suggest you might want to get more things to do in your life....

It's a question of logic. If bees drift between hives and if beeking may involve test frames, donation of brood to a weak hive, amalgamation etc then it is reasonable that I query your views on personal hygiene. If you dislike a contrary opinion, don't post.

 

[HM Honey]

It's a question of logic. If bees drift between hives and if beeking may involve test frames, donation of brood to a weak hive, amalgamation etc then it is reasonable that I query your views on personal hygiene. If you dislike a contrary opinion, don't post.

Nothing wrong with "contrary Opinions" Amari. Thats what forums are all about.

What I dislike about this forum at times is when you get childish idiots making stupid sarcastic comments about other peoples habits just because they think they know EVERYTHING...

You know the type, comments like:

"Thank god someone else is willing to swap kit and bees between colonies when needs be (see current thread on Personal Hygiene"

or

"Would be even safer to have a separate beekeeper for each hive "

Constructive comments or even criticism welcome. Childish sarcastic comments should be kept to your playground...

I wouldnt mind, but if you bothered to actually read the thread, you will see that I never said it would stop the spread of disease, and that its just a habit i have got into. You would also see that I said I would have no objection to providing a frame of eggs or brood to another hive... The problem is, you were too busy trying to come up with childish comments to actually read it..

 

[Nige.Coll]

i had the same thing with one of mine.
i was convinced i had damaged the queen or she had died.
3 to 4 weeks with no eggs or brood and the bees were getting grumpy.
i fed them and went back a few days later and eggs and larvae in there so all was good.
from what i have heard and read there are a lot of people having unusual brood breaks and have been for a month or so.
some in the association have had exactly the same thing and convinced themselves they were q- and introduced queens only for them to be killed.

i hope it all works out well for you in the end.



can people please stay on topic
personally i am tired of threads being hijacked by silly squabbles.