Swarmy Carnolians - Early Demaree - Fix or Folly

[meikle]

I started beekeeping in July 2008 with 2 Nucs from Mike Roberts, each headed by a Carnolian Queen. All went well initially and the colonies increased sufficiently to get through the winter. The early 2009 spring build up started early (for Aberdeenshire!!) but in early May both hives swarmed when there was plenty of space in the brood box and several frames remained unoccupied. As I had no spare hives, the swarms were farmed out to a local very experienced beekeeper, one of which returned to me to replace a colony which was severely depleted by continuous swarming. None of the experienced beekeepers who inherited my many swarms during last summer managed to keep the bees in the box. The final swarm departed in late August whilst on the hill for heather honey.

This year I have decided to be more proactive and today I have carried out a Demaree on a rapidly expanding colony headed by one of the original Carnolian Queens even though there is no evidence of QCs at this stage. No supers have been placed between the brood boxes just the queen excluder as there is no chance of any honey flow here for some weeks yet.

I would be interested in other members experiences of this method.

Richard

 

[trulli1]

Hi Richard,

Was this essentially the method you used as described below:

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/demaree.html

Learnt something new today.

 

[meikle]

Yes, this is essentially what I have done except that I didn't wait for QC's to appear as I was advised by a local practitioner of the method that it was best to carry out the Demaree before the bees show signs of swarming. The main difficulty up here is the unpredictable weather may interfere with the subsequent checks for QC's - here's hoping!!

Richard

 

[Do224]

I know this is a very old thread but….is this a viable way of doing the demaree? I thought the whole point is to trick the bees into thinking they have a failing queen, hence the need for supers in between

 

[JamezF]

I know this is a very old thread but….is this a viable way of doing the demaree? I thought the whole point is to trick the bees into thinking they have a failing queen, hence the need for supers in between

My understanding has always been that the point of a Demaree is to separate the flying bees (who instigate the swarming process) from the house bees (who would normally make up the majority of the swarm). Putting a couple of supers between the bottom box (where the foragers tend to stay) and the top box (full of brood and therefore where most of the house bees will prefer to congregate) helps to minimise contact between the two groups. Given that understanding, I can't see that merely putting a QX in and moving all the brood above it would be likely to achieve much. You'd also quite possibly end up with a load of dead drones above the QX unless they were "let out" on a regular basis.

Perhaps giving the bees more space by adding a second brood box well before they might be expected to swarm might reduce the chance of them actually swarming, but it feels like a bit of a gamble to me.

James

 

[Curly green finger's]

Just wondering if you use a demaree board with a second entrance and have the hole in the board only a cm or two would possibly work

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the OP (amongst others) way back in 2010 just demonstrated their ignorance of the mechanics and objectives of a Demaree. and it's obvious by the lack of interaction that it doesn't warrant ressurection.

Just wondering if you use a demaree board with a second entrance and have the hole in the board only a cm or two would possibly work

again, you don't understand the original and main objective of a Demaree. It has nothing to do with instigating QC production so no need to restrict pheromone exchange between the two brood boxes.
George Demaree never used any kind of board or queen excluder, that is just something I do to save money on needing two QXs (not really necessary) for each hive and affording an ( again totally unnecessary) upper entrance to both keep the drones out of the honey shallows (just a frippery really and not really necessary) and also to allow drones in the top box to exit, again not really necessary, but something backyard beekeepers like to wring their hands over

I thought the whole point is to trick the bees into thinking they have a failing queen, hence the need for supers in between

No, as JamezF says, it's about separating the queen from the brood and convincing the colony there is no need to swarm.

The reality is, if your colony doesn't need at least one 'super' between the bottom (brood free) box and the top box it's too weak to Demaree.
once a colony has eight frames of brood, it needs a super - coincidentally, this is about the same time you should be thinking of Demareeing
if your colony has started making QCs, it's too late to Demaree

I'll repeat, The Demaree board is just a way of saving money on queen excluders and also a way of further reducing pheromone flow to the top box to trigger supersedure cell production for making increase. If you don't want to make increase, you don't need it, in fact, over the season, unless I particularly want new queens from a particular strain, I go in and tear down all the QCs.
Just have a read of this - it's all pretty simple really
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

I just have this feeling that you have worked yourself into a panic when in reality, we are still deep in winter territory.

Personally, I think clear crownboards should be banned.

 

[Do224]

Personally, I think clear crownboards should be banned.

 

[alisonfosterbell]

the OP (amongst others) way back in 2010 just demonstrated their ignorance of the mechanics and objectives of a Demaree. and it's obvious by the lack of interaction that it doesn't warrant ressurection.

again, you don't understand the original and main objective of a Demaree. It has nothing to do with instigating QC production so no need to restrict pheromone exchange between the two brood boxes.
George Demaree never used any kind of board or queen excluder, that is just something I do to save money on needing two QXs (not really necessary) for each hive and affording an ( again totally unnecessary) upper entrance to both keep the drones out of the honey shallows (just a frippery really and not really necessary) and also to allow drones in the top box to exit, again not really necessary, but something backyard beekeepers like to wring their hands over

No, as JamezF says, it's about separating the queen from the brood and convincing the colony there is no need to swarm.

The reality is, if your colony doesn't need at least one 'super' between the bottom (brood free) box and the top box it's too weak to Demaree.
once a colony has eight frames of brood, it needs a super - coincidentally, this is about the same time you should be thinking of Demareeing
if your colony has started making QCs, it's too late to Demaree

I'll repeat, The Demaree board is just a way of saving money on queen excluders and also a way of further reducing pheromone flow to the top box to trigger supersedure cell production for making increase. If you don't want to make increase, you don't need it, in fact, over the season, unless I particularly want new queens from a particular strain, I go in and tear down all the QCs.
Just have a read of this - it's all pretty simple really
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

I just have this feeling that you have worked yourself into a panic when in reality, we are still deep in winter territory.

Personally, I think clear crownboards should be banned.

Your post on the Demaree method was really interesting. I have read this and others such as The Apiarist with enthusiasm.
As a relative beginner and having found my Goldilocks sweet spot for the number of hives, I don't want to increase them this coming season, so I'm really keen on trying out the Demaree method. However- please forgive my ignorance- I can't understand how the drones can escape from the top box without an exit (the shallow eke such as you describe but I'm not quite sure exactly what it looks like). I live in France and I run Dadant hives.

 

[Penninetrader]

Today I have observed one colony only having a squadron of about 12 bees returning with some evidence of pollen, all were flying but with no obvious purpose, my point, at this moment in time I am a zillion miles away from planning Demaree or splits, my immediate plans are to ensure none of my girls starve and crossing my fingers that weather allows them a good start. After that I and the girls can take opportunity as it presents itself. They are not a factory, they are wild creatures and I am very pleased that thus far they are all still alive.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I can't understand how the drones can escape from the top box without an exit (

They can't. You let them out when you inspect. I always like to put an exit in though.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I can't understand how the drones can escape from the top box without an exit

as Dani says, they get out when you inspect.
here's the Demaree boards I made,

a shallow eke is just that a wooden square the same dimensions as your hive, about 10,15mm deep with an entrance cut into it (very much the same as the top rim of the Demaree board shown in the second picture

 

[Do224]

as Dani says, they get out when you inspect.
here's the Demaree boards I made,
View attachment 42146View attachment 42147
a shallow eke is just that a wooden square the same dimensions as your hive, about 10,15mm deep with an entrance cut into it (very much the same as the top rim of the Demaree board shown in the second picture

I wonder if you could just use an old crown board with a piece of queen excluder taped over the holes and an entrance notched in?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I wonder if you could just use an old crown board with a piece of queen excluder taped over the holes and an entrance notched in?

yes

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wonder if you could just use an old crown board

I use a QX.