Swarmed! 29th September!

[brianmc]

Gah!

This is mainly venting but finally some input would be appreciated on a decision.

I've another thread here recently where I was advised that my bees sound to be too swarmy and I should re-queen. I've decided to order all new queens for early next year. I wasn't able to find any with "a bit of breeding to them" at short notice here.

As it happens this story is about a new nucleus I bought in in early July unrelated to the bees that were discussed before but they're all destined for re-queening next year.

So...

I bought in some 6 frame nucs in early July. This particular one was quite full when I got it with 3 to 4 frames of brood. A few days after I got it and got it's final location sorted I transferred it into a dummied down national brood box.

For the next couple of months it gradually expanded to perhaps 9 frames of bees. Brood expanded a bit too. Not dramatic. I started the first tray of apiguard treatment on the 4th of September. I left a small contact feeder on with roughly a litre of light syrup at the start because the weather was a little miserable and they were a little low on stores. The weather picked up and the bees got busy though so I didn't bother topping it up with another litre until I added the second tray of apiguard on the 18th. So not a lot of feeding.

A week and a half into the second tray of apiguard (yesterday) I got a call to say that there was a big cluster of bees outside a hive. There was. On the outside of this hive.

I got the bulk of the cluster... perhaps medium sized (I'm not very experienced) into a nuc and the rest of the bees marched in politely afterwards so I'm pretty sure I have the queen.

Inside the hive, there were still bees on perhaps 4 frames (they hadn't all absconded) there was almost no brood. A small patch of capped brood... not worth talking about and about 8 sealed queen cells of different shapes and sizes. They'd actually swarmed!?!? Did the recent good weather fool them out of supercedure? Bees aren't that daft are they? There are no drones anywhere in my hives so I culled all of the queen cells... they were miserable looking and I presumed at this time of year were pointless anyway.

So... I kept the new nuc adjacent to the original hive in case I decide to merge them in a few days time.

This is where I'm trying to make a decision... Gamble on the obviously under-performing queen to take them through the winter by merging the two parts back together, or just add them all to another queen-right hive somewhere?

The exisitng queen was perhaps just off laying with the apiguard and will come back to normal now without it? I'm a little shy of just adding them to another colony because, well, it wasn't my plan. I bought them to increase my stocks.

Have a picture...

View attachment 8910

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I'll let others far more experienced reply, but I would like to point out there is a theme throughout the forum this year that the bees have been seeming to "gamble" on a favourable early autumn, and so far have most definitely got away with it. The door is currently forecast to shut hard late this week though.

 

[psafloyd]

Gah!

This is mainly venting but finally some input would be appreciated on a decision.

I've another thread here recently where I was advised that my bees sound to be too swarmy and I should re-queen. I've decided to order all new queens for early next year. I wasn't able to find any with "a bit of breeding to them" at short notice here.

As it happens this story is about a new nucleus I bought in in early July unrelated to the bees that were discussed before but they're all destined for re-queening next year.

So...

I bought in some 6 frame nucs in early July. This particular one was quite full when I got it with 3 to 4 frames of brood. A few days after I got it and got it's final location sorted I transferred it into a dummied down national brood box.

For the next couple of months it gradually expanded to perhaps 9 frames of bees. Brood expanded a bit too. Not dramatic. I started the first tray of apiguard treatment on the 4th of September. I left a small contact feeder on with roughly a litre of light syrup at the start because the weather was a little miserable and they were a little low on stores. The weather picked up and the bees got busy though so I didn't bother topping it up with another litre until I added the second tray of apiguard on the 18th. So not a lot of feeding.

A week and a half into the second tray of apiguard (yesterday) I got a call to say that there was a big cluster of bees outside a hive. There was. On the outside of this hive.

I got the bulk of the cluster... perhaps medium sized (I'm not very experienced) into a nuc and the rest of the bees marched in politely afterwards so I'm pretty sure I have the queen.

Inside the hive, there were still bees on perhaps 4 frames (they hadn't all absconded) there was almost no brood. A small patch of capped brood... not worth talking about and about 8 sealed queen cells of different shapes and sizes. They'd actually swarmed!?!? Did the recent good weather fool them out of supercedure? Bees aren't that daft are they? There are no drones anywhere in my hives so I culled all of the queen cells... they were miserable looking and I presumed at this time of year were pointless anyway.

So... I kept the new nuc adjacent to the original hive in case I decide to merge them in a few days time.

This is where I'm trying to make a decision... Gamble on the obviously under-performing queen to take them through the winter by merging the two parts back together, or just add them all to another queen-right hive somewhere?

The exisitng queen was perhaps just off laying with the apiguard and will come back to normal now without it? I'm a little shy of just adding them to another colony because, well, it wasn't my plan. I bought them to increase my stocks.

Have a picture...

View attachment 8910

Brian,

Why is your queen obviously under performing? I don't mean in terms of the brood size per se, but what was the quality of the brood?

Could she have been a new queen thrown in with some existing brood from another colony to make up the nuc and therefore wasn't quite firing On all cylinders?

Are there any local conditions that may have caused her to be a bit slow at building up, or was it just that you had a nuc made up in June, so it was never going to be a barnstormer in any case?

You're right, Apiguard can cause bees to beard or stay outside if it is getting to them, but it doesn't mean they're swarming. It will often cause the queen to stop laying, too, so that may not be a cause for concern, especially as you are near the end of treatment. Mine have only just begun and have a long way to go, if the weather allows it.

I'd reunite as they'll probably settle down with the Apiguard coming off shortly.

However, expect one of the experts to come along with the right answer.

 

[beeno]

Hi brianmc,
If it wasn't for the QCs the general concensus probably would have been, they are bearding and will go back in again! Thanks for posting very interesting indeed.

 

[For want of a better word]

Some it seems do not like Apiguard ... or the 16? grams of thymol in the 500g initial dose?

A friend tried the formadehyde treatment AKA MAQ stuff a few yeas ago and lost a colony of Buckfarts!... did not really swarm... just left to find somewhere less smelly to live!!!

 

[Putnamsmif]

I'll let others far more experienced reply, but I would like to point out there is a theme throughout the forum this year that the bees have been seeming to "gamble" on a favourable early autumn, and so far have most definitely got away with it. The door is currently forecast to shut hard late this week though.

No doors slamming here in Norfolk, bit of rain forecast later in week, but otherwise late teens well into next week. And I have to say today the temperature's well into the twenties today, not the 17/18 that was forecast.

 

[masterBK]

Queen not seen, no eggs and 8 miserable Q cells.
------------------------------------------------------------
Swarm or supersedure cells are rarely miserable ones but emergency Q ones can be. If you don't see eggs or an actual queen soon can I suggest two alternative scenarios

1) The bees bearded because of the apiguard and have been there for several days before anyone noticed and called you. The bees remaining in the hive ran short of Q pheromone in the absence of the queen (she went with the others into the beard) so constructed emergency cells. You have destroyed these rendering colony queenless. Ultimately after a few weeks laying workers will start up and you will see multiple eggs in cells.

2) Be interesting to see if the queen is actually in the nucleus. If not (and I think not) then maybe bees balled queen on intro of Apiguard (happened to one of my colonies once with Api lif var) and at same time bearded outside hive leaving bees inside the hive to construct emergency cells.

 

[psafloyd]

2) Be interesting to see if the queen is actually in the nucleus. If not (and I think not) then maybe bees balled queen on intro of Apiguard (happened to one of my colonies once with Api lif var) and at same time bearded outside hive leaving bees inside the hive to construct emergency cells.

Is that the Apiguard swamping the pheromones, do you think, masterBK, or a reaction to stress?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Watching this thread, I'd like more clarity on dosages, as well. The Apiguard instructions are silent on OMF open or closed, the dose lethal to AM is only double that to VD, and you sound like you were in a stopped-down box. That would imply a strong dose and it would be good to hear whether others who are suffering similarly to you have had the same. I have seen the same on-tray dose on some very high, open stacks this year as well.

 

[brianmc]

Queen not seen, no eggs and 8 miserable Q cells.
------------------------------------------------------------
Swarm or supersedure cells are rarely miserable ones but emergency Q ones can be. If you don't see eggs or an actual queen soon can I suggest two alternative scenarios

1) The bees bearded because of the apiguard and have been there for several days before anyone noticed and called you. The bees remaining in the hive ran short of Q pheromone in the absence of the queen (she went with the others into the beard) so constructed emergency cells. You have destroyed these rendering colony queenless. Ultimately after a few weeks laying workers will start up and you will see multiple eggs in cells.

2) Be interesting to see if the queen is actually in the nucleus. If not (and I think not) then maybe bees balled queen on intro of Apiguard (happened to one of my colonies once with Api lif var) and at same time bearded outside hive leaving bees inside the hive to construct emergency cells.

I see where you're coming from with the emergency cells. Explanation 1 could well fit.

I forgot to mention my mistake and possibly the most important detail... There wasn't a lot of ventilation in the hive... almost none actually. The entrance was reduced to a single bee space because of wasps, the inspection board was in.

What makes me think that I do have the queen is the way that the remaining part of the cluster filed into the nuc. I brushed about 2/3 in and within a couple of minutes they were fanning at the entrance and the rest marched dutifully along.

I guess I'll find out in a couple of days.

Where the cluster was there are clearly little flecks of wax on the woodwork but I couldn't estimate how long that might indicate they were there.

 

[brianmc]

Brian,

Why is your queen obviously under performing? I don't mean in terms of the brood size per se, but what was the quality of the brood?

Could she have been a new queen thrown in with some existing brood from another colony to make up the nuc and therefore wasn't quite firing On all cylinders?

Are there any local conditions that may have caused her to be a bit slow at building up, or was it just that you had a nuc made up in June, so it was never going to be a barnstormer in any case?

Underperforming as in there is currently no new brood. That's not a conclusion though on whether it is the Queen's problem or simply due to the apiguard. To be honest I can't really comment on the quality of the brood. My last real inspection of the frames was back at the beginning of August.

Could she have been a new queen thrown in with existing brood? Absolutely. It wouldn't surprise me.

Local conditions... none that I can think of... weather was good... forage was good.

 

[psafloyd]

Underperforming as in there is currently no new brood. That's not a conclusion though on whether it is the Queen's problem or simply due to the apiguard. To be honest I can't really comment on the quality of the brood. My last real inspection of the frames was back at the beginning of August.

Could she have been a new queen thrown in with existing brood? Absolutely. It wouldn't surprise me.

Local conditions... none that I can think of... weather was good... forage was good.

Interesting one. Please keep us updated.

 

[alldigging]

Where the cluster was there are clearly little flecks of wax on the woodwork but I couldn't estimate how long that might indicate they were there.

They can do that within a few minutes.

 

[m100]

Gah!

I bought in some 6 frame nucs in early July....when I got it with 3 to 4 frames of brood.

For the next couple of months it gradually expanded to perhaps 9 frames of bees. Brood expanded a bit too. Not dramatic. I started the first tray of apiguard treatment on the 4th of September.

....and about 8 sealed queen cells of different shapes and sizes.

Just a few observations (some already covered above)

3 to 4 frames of brood will easily cover 9 frames when emerged

The hive may have had a low or average mite load and there are not enough brood cycles in two months to bring a low mite count to the point at which treatment is necessary in the autumn

You make no mention of monitoring varroa drop yet treated with apiguard regardless of the need to do so

Apiguard or any other thymol treatment can make bees abscond, beard, or put the queen off laying.

They are unlikely to have swarmed but it's not impossible, but clearly there are too many cells for supecedure.

I'd remove the apiguard and merge asap as you need a mass of young bees for the winter cluster, if that is with another hive or just the two masses back together can only be judged by someone on the spot.

You also make no mention of proper winter feeding, a litre or two of light syrup as you mention is nowhere near enough, a contact feeder is no good for anything but stimulating a nectar flow and thus brood.

So is winter feeding complete, in progress or what?

 

[brianmc]

Just a few observations (some already covered above)

3 to 4 frames of brood will easily cover 9 frames when emerged

While the bee population expanded for a while they didn't draw out much extra space. There were 9 frames available (6 from the nuc, 3 foundation) but they didn't draw out much more than one one of the foundation frames. As suggested before the queen may not have been great from the start.

The hive may have had a low or average mite load and there are not enough brood cycles in two months to bring a low mite count to the point at which treatment is necessary in the autumn

You make no mention of monitoring varroa drop yet treated with apiguard regardless of the need to do so

True. It's on my mind that I should get more on top of monitoring. I had limited time this year and opted to treat.

Apiguard or any other thymol treatment can make bees abscond, beard, or put the queen off laying.

Yes, after I got the call I was expecting that they might just be bearding and would settle back in. When I got there I saw the size of the cluster and it was mostly on the side of the hive away from the front. I haven't that much experience yet but I decided it didn't feel right and hived the cluster. I was glad I did when I got a look inside and found the queen cells.

They are unlikely to have swarmed but it's not impossible, but clearly there are too many cells for supecedure.

I like masterBK's possible explanation for that. Apiguard on. Queen slows down/stops. Bees beard (with queen). Remaining bees left queenless and almost broodless so produce a bunch of emergency cells. It's only a theory but it could fit IMO.

I'd remove the apiguard and merge asap as you need a mass of young bees for the winter cluster, if that is with another hive or just the two masses back together can only be judged by someone on the spot.

Apiguard is off. It was mainly gone so I removed it on Sunday while I was dealing with it. Also, they were almost completely broodless at this stage and it was the second tray of apiguard so not serving much purpose.

I was hoping to merge the two parts into the poly nuc that the cluster are in last night. The weather was miserable here though so I decided to gamble on tonight being better. I'll be doing it this evening whatever the weather.

I think they'll get through winter in the poly nuc. It will be a cosy nucleus when they're all together again. My only concern is if the queen is in poor shape how much would that affect their wintering prospects? Should I cut my loss now and bolster another colony with them.

You also make no mention of proper winter feeding, a litre or two of light syrup as you mention is nowhere near enough, a contact feeder is no good for anything but stimulating a nectar flow and thus brood.

So is winter feeding complete, in progress or what?

Winter feeding starts tonight too. The light syrup was just to tide them over a couple of bad days earlier in the month. I mentioned it to rule out the question of the box being stores bound.

2 to 1 is in a bucket in the back of the car along with the ashforth feeders. Feeding hasn't hadn't started yet because the apiguard was on and only due to finish yesterday.

Thanks for your input! I'll report back tomorrow with what I find in the nuc this evening. ...eggs, hopefully!

 

[brianmc]

A litany of mistakes

So, mistakes upon mistakes.

Hopefully I'm learning from all of this.

MasterBK seems to be on the ball with one possible adjustment to his explanation.

On Saturday evening I went back to the site with the intention of removing the hive to another site where I have a colony that would make use of the extra bees from a merge.

I arrived just at dusk to find a cluster outside again - and so the theories change a bit...

Saturday was a great day for the ivy. There was nectar dripping off the flowers near home. The temperature reached roughly 18 degrees and the hives were hopping.

I had forgotten to open up the entrance to more than one bee space. I now think that the cluster(s) formed on the outside because the queue to get back in was too much. There was pollen on the ground directly below the entrance and plenty of bees in the cluster were still carrying some.

So I knocked the cluster onto a board and ran them up to the (opened up) entrance. They all appeared to be in home as the light finally vanished.

I went back yesterday to take another look through the hive with a friend just as a last check before making a decision.

So the current situation... (I need opinions again)

There were new queen cups with eggs. There were a few eggs here and there throughout the hive. Maybe three or four cells on one frame, two or three on another. They all looked about a day to two days old. Some of the cells had multiple eggs. No larvae yet (except for one tiny one in one of the queen cells). We decided that it's laying workers in their early stages (as per masterBK's prediction!).

I'd still like to merge this colony to another (and soon!) but do I need to shake these out first? There's not a lot of laying going on yet. I won't be in a position to do anything today but I should be able to act tomorrow. The recipient colony is currently about 7 frames of bees with two frames of brood. This colony is about 9 frames of bees.

Thanks for your input folks!

 

[beeno]

Hi brianmc,
Seven days to develop laying workers seems a bit soon to me. How is the other part of this equation doing i.e. the so called prime swarm? Other possibilities IMHO, they were Q- all along or you have a newly mated queen in there and the bearding was due to treatment?

 

[brianmc]

Hi brianmc,
Seven days to develop laying workers seems a bit soon to me. How is the other part of this equation doing i.e. the so called prime swarm? Other possibilities IMHO, they were Q- all along or you have a newly mated queen in there and the bearding was due to treatment?

Ah! Sorry, I missed a bit... I did throw the two parts back together into the original hive on Friday evening in preparation for the planned move on Saturday. No sign of a queen anywhere. Yesterdays inspection was of the full recombined colony.

Re 7 days...

The last time the queen was seen and BIAS was 4th September when the apiguard first went on.

The very last of the sealed brood is left so they're perhaps queenless for 3 weeks now.

We considered a newly mated (or unmated) queen... in fact some of the eggs (not all) seemed to be nicely placed in the bottoms of the cells, however, there were eggs in queen cells, one charged with a ~1 day old larva and the few eggs that there are have no pattern to them whatsoever... a couple on one frame, none on the next, 5 or 6 on the next...

I didn't notice any "properly opened" queen cells either for what that's worth.

 

[Skyhook]

Apiguard can put the queen off laying, but so can other things such as the weather. half my hives were broodless when I went to apply thymol, due I'm assuming to a sudden end to the flow, caused by dropping temperatures and dry ground. It seems too much of a coincidence for 3 queens to have failed all at once.

Having stopped, it can take a queen a little while to gear up again, and that could apply to queen substance as well. I would be tempted to pull down qc's, and give it another week to see what happens.


.

 

[brianmc]

Hi,

Thanks for all the input folks.

I'm 95% sure the old queen isn't there. She was nicely marked and I would spot her without intention on most inspections. Two thorough trawls through the box (in two halves at one point) show no sign of her. That and the emergency queen cells.

I'm also 90% sure it isn't a young queen laying the eggs. The distribution of eggs is a little crazy and there was no sign of opened queen cells. They are building new queen cells.

I have to act soon... I couldn't get there yesterday again but I can get there this evening.

Given that I suspect the workers are starting to lay...

Has anybody an opinion on merging them into a colony without doing a shake out first?

Or must I absolutely shake them out?

Obviously I don't want to turn one colony loss into two!

Thanks!