Swarm - to re-hive, pass on, release or ignore?

[dan3008]

Ok, I know this is really too early to be thinking about this, but it'll affect my bee keeping, and where I place the hive. That is its playing on my mind, so I want to sort the plan out now...



So a really silly question:
Having got permission from my land lord, and all neighbors (in my block of houses, and ones either side, with the offer of honey/wax if I actually manage to get going) I want to keep the hive in my back garden. That way, even when i'm not well enough to travel to the allotment, I can go check on the girls.

But, even with this permission, I am worried that if my hive swarms, it'll upset the neighbors. Now, I dont really have the money for a second hive, and my land lord only gave me permission for one, and i dont want to upset him.

So, what I'm wondering is how best to deal with a swarm if/when one occurs... Obviously,' without a second hive, its difficult to prevent/manage...
4 immediate options spring to mind:

1 - Re-hive a swarm, or artificially swarm the hive, and keep them in a nucleus colony (I'm not sure how long a nucleus colony can last without swarming or dying?)
2 - Catch a swarm/artificially swarm the hive, and pass on the bees to another beek locally. Although, without a car, I cant imagine the bus driver being happy with my carrying live bees on the bus...
3 - Catch a swarm/artificially swarm the hive, and then release the swarm in the nearby woodland. While I could walk it up to the woods, even with a Nucleus box, I'm not sure exactly how I could release the swarm up there? short of physically removing the queen or just tipping the whole box out and hoping for the best
4 - Just let them get on with it, and hope noone complains too much.

as a side note, I know I'd get less honey/wax when a hive swarms, but how big a difference will it make? While I've helped with keeping before, I've never dealt with a swarm...

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I'm not sure that I'm directly addressing your question, but you seem to see the only choices are to do an artificial swarm, or retrieve a swarm.

There is the option of using the Demaree method to (try to) prevent swarming without increasing the hive count.

Of course, it doesn't always work and then you have to turn to the choices you outline.


Dusty

 

[BeeJayBee]

I think it might be difficult to do a Demaree etc with a Warre.

 

[dan3008]

I'm not sure that I'm directly addressing your question, but you seem to see the only choices are to do an artificial swarm, or retrieve a swarm.

There is the option of using the Demaree method to (try to) prevent swarming without increasing the hive count.

Of course, it doesn't always work and then you have to turn to the choices you outline.


Dusty

I think it might be difficult to do a Demaree etc with a Warre.

Oops, I should have mentioned in this l its a warre top bar hive, thanks beejaybee. My old mentor says that for a few years I should let them swarm as they see fit, and the swarm will probably go straight to the woodland. I'm still not convinced that my neighbours would be ok with it though

 

[pargyle]

I think it might be difficult to do a Demaree etc with a Warre.

Yep ...one of the downsides of keeping bees in a Warre ...

The OP really needs to recognise that swarming is a reality ... at some point either this year or next year his bees WILL swarm .. even with the best efforts of the beekeeper in either Demaree or AS.. you will get caught out because swarming is what bees do ... the clever little beggars will hide a queen cell in a corner where you don't spot it .. or they wll catch you out by swarming earler than you expected, or your inexperience will miss the signs... it WILL happen - not if, just when.

So .. Plan B is essential ... and trying to take a swarm somewhere else and letting them go is not an option ... they may just fly back to where they landed originally.

You really DO need two boxes - no matter how basic it is .. a second box is essential - given the second box you have so many more opportunities .. without it you are just playing roulette with the bees and if your neighbours get upset when they do swarm .. you have much to lose.,

 

[Poly Hive]

From what you say I would seriously council a beginner NOT to even think of keeping a colony in the midst of people. If it goes pear shaped you could find yourself facing multiple claims.

Think again please.

I would not do it even now.

PH

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Ok, I know this is really too early to be thinking about this, but it'll affect my bee keeping, and where I place the hive. That is its playing on my mind, so I want to sort the plan out now...



So a really silly question:
Having got permission from my land lord, and all neighbors (in my block of houses, and ones either side, with the offer of honey/wax if I actually manage to get going) I want to keep the hive in my back garden. That way, even when i'm not well enough to travel to the allotment, I can go check on the girls.

But, even with this permission, I am worried that if my hive swarms, it'll upset the neighbors. Now, I dont really have the money for a second hive, and my land lord only gave me permission for one, and i dont want to upset him.

So, what I'm wondering is how best to deal with a swarm if/when one occurs... Obviously,' without a second hive, its difficult to prevent/manage...
4 immediate options spring to mind:

1 - Re-hive a swarm, or artificially swarm the hive, and keep them in a nucleus colony (I'm not sure how long a nucleus colony can last without swarming or dying?)
2 - Catch a swarm/artificially swarm the hive, and pass on the bees to another beek locally. Although, without a car, I cant imagine the bus driver being happy with my carrying live bees on the bus...
3 - Catch a swarm/artificially swarm the hive, and then release the swarm in the nearby woodland. While I could walk it up to the woods, even with a Nucleus box, I'm not sure exactly how I could release the swarm up there? short of physically removing the queen or just tipping the whole box out and hoping for the best
4 - Just let them get on with it, and hope noone complains too much.

as a side note, I know I'd get less honey/wax when a hive swarms, but how big a difference will it make? While I've helped with keeping before, I've never dealt with a swarm...

Reading your post I have to be brutally honest and say this bodes ill for your future in beekeeping. If you have mobility or health issues, no transport and what sounds like extremely limited space home beekeeping isn't something to start.
Have you made contact with a local beekeeping association? They may be able to give local advice or suggest suitable locations for an apiary and perhaps more to the point "guide" you out of thinking it's ok to let bees swarm freely in an urban environment. This sort of approach puts other beekeepers in a difficult position when the general public suffer the effects.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree with everything else, especially Polyhive.
I'd like to add
as a side note, I know I'd get less honey/wax when a hive swarms, but how big a difference will it make? While I've helped with keeping before, I've never dealt with a swarm...
Lots. If you practice no swarm control a strong colony will swarm more than once and you will get little crop.

 

[mjt68]

Bees swarm, happens to everyone even with regular framed hives and regular inspections. With a Warre, inspections are much more difficult and your bees will swarm. Lots.

People do keep bees in gardens successfully, but I would advise everybody to have an out apiary organised. If the bees swarm or go queenless for whatever reason, if the weather changes or if a good nectar flow comes to an end, bees that were pussycats the week before can turn aggressive overnight. As soon as anyone gets stung or scared, the neighbourly thing to do is move the bees.

If your neighbours start getting scared by swarms (they look and sound very intimidating even though there's little real danger) or angry bees, you might find their kind permission swiftly withdrawn. It's not my place to say what you can or can't do with your spare time in your garden but I'd have a long hard think. At least get a lot more hands-on experience with bees in swarm management and really really really consider getting a traditional framed hive like a National or Langstroth.

 

[Brian Bush]

Hi Dan. I would artificially swarm and pass the artificial swarm on to another beekeeper

 

[Fatbee]

Oops, I should have mentioned in this l its a warre top bar hive, thanks beejaybee. My old mentor says that for a few years I should let them swarm as they see fit, and the swarm will probably go straight to the woodland. I'm still not convinced that my neighbours would be ok with it though

Will your old mentor pay for bees to be disposed of in your neighbours chimney or roofs when they swarm - no - and his advice is irresponsible. You have to have a swarm control option if beekeeping in an urban environment.

I think you need to read up about swarm behaviour - then you will see some of your options are not feasible like tipping them out in a woodland

 

[dan3008]

Thankyou everyone for your kind words, I've got a lot to think about, but one things for certain, I am going to have to take a year or two to work out the fine details before doing anything... And hope that a local swarm doesn't find its way into one of my hive boxes lol

The OP really needs to recognise that swarming is a reality ... at some point either this year or next year his bees WILL swarm .. even with the best efforts of the beekeeper in either Demaree or AS.. you will get caught out because swarming is what bees do ... the clever little beggars will hide a queen cell in a corner where you don't spot it .. or they wll catch you out by swarming earler than you expected, or your inexperience will miss the signs... it WILL happen - not if, just when.

I know swarms will happen, that's my reason for getting advice before I start.

You really DO need two boxes - no matter how basic it is .. a second box is essential - given the second box you have so many more opportunities .. without it you are just playing roulette with the bees and if your neighbours get upset when they do swarm .. you have much to lose.,

Ok, looks like a letter to the land lord (if I keep the hive at home), if I quote safety of other residents, he may well let me have a second hive, and ill make 6 nucleus boxes. At least its a start

From what you say I would seriously council a beginner NOT to even think of keeping a colony in the midst of people. If it goes pear shaped you could find yourself facing multiple claims.

Think again please.

I would not do it even now.

PH

Fair play, ironically it was on advice from my mentor I was thinking about doing it at home... Guess its was for him to say that from 50 miles away

Reading your post I have to be brutally honest and say this bodes ill for your future in beekeeping. If you have mobility or health issues, no transport and what sounds like extremely limited space home beekeeping isn't something to start.

thank you, its refreshing for someone to be so honest. My health issues are anxiety and bpd meaning on a bad day I really can't be around people, my main reason for liking bee keeping is I find it therapeutic, even getting stung has a strangely therapeutic effect... I'm just strange. Transport is a bigger issue, but I will have a car by this time next year. Its just not been practical so far. As fir space, space isn't an issue at all. I have room for 12 hives properly spaced, just a mardy land lord who says that a hive counts as a pet, and has a 1 pet policy on all the houses...

Have you made contact with a local beekeeping association? They may be able to give local advice or suggest suitable locations for an apiary and perhaps more to the point "guide" you out of thinking it's ok to let bees swarm freely in an urban environment. This sort of approach puts other beekeepers in a difficult position when the general public suffer the effects.

About an hour before I posted here I emailed them. So should have a reply today or Monday I dont think its ok to let bees swarm freely in an urban environment... That's why I am asking for help. At the moment though, the only swarm protection I have is 4 extra boxes I can put in to increase space, but at most that'll only buy me a year (probably less, but I'm working on the fact a 4 box hive should last a year)

Bees swarm, happens to everyone even with regular framed hives and regular inspections. With a Warre, inspections are much more difficult and your bees will swarm. Lots.

People do keep bees in gardens successfully, but I would advise everybody to have an out apiary organised. If the bees swarm or go queenless for whatever reason, if the weather changes or if a good nectar flow comes to an end, bees that were pussycats the week before can turn aggressive overnight. As soon as anyone gets stung or scared, the neighbourly thing to do is move the bees.

If your neighbours start getting scared by swarms (they look and sound very intimidating even though there's little real danger) or angry bees, you might find their kind permission swiftly withdrawn. It's not my place to say what you can or can't do with your spare time in your garden but I'd have a long hard think. At least get a lot more hands-on experience with bees in swarm management and really really really consider getting a traditional framed hive like a National or Langstroth.

If I need to, I can move the bees/hive to the allotment, or my local farm are always looking fir donations of hives and colonies. I've used framed hives before, and didn't get on with them, but I loved working with a horizontal tbh. And the way i see it, a warre is best of both... That and it was a gift, beggars cant be choses. I have seen warre frames though, so if you really recommend it, I can look at them

 

[dan3008]

Hi Dan. I would artificially swarm and pass the artificial swarm on to another beekeeper

Thanks. I was leaning to that option anyway.

Will your old mentor pay for bees to be disposed of in your neighbours chimney or roofs when they swarm - no - and his advice is irresponsible. You have to have a swarm control option if beekeeping in an urban environment.

I think you need to read up about swarm behaviour - then you will see some of your options are not feasible like tipping them out in a woodland

Dont get me started ... From 50 miles away, and having given up keeping because of his age, I dont think he cares anymore

 

[mjt68]

I think if you have experience and a local mentor then with regular inspections and annual requeening with a non-swarmy strain your plan might almost work (average less than 1 swarm a year anyway). Remember that books make everything sound easy - finding all the QCs isn't always easy! Each instance of swarming can lead to multiple swarms - prime and casts - and the easier inspections are the more likely you are to catch preparations in time for an artificial swarm or to at least stop multiple casts issuing.

I've never played with a Warre but have my own Langstroths and have had a go with a horizontal TBH. I don't want to start a war, but the Warre might be the worst of both worlds - boxes full of honey and comb are heavy and they just seem to be asking for lots of cross/brace/wild comb which will make inspections very very difficult and give QCs lots of places to hide. I've also seen on other tbh forums that lots of Warre keepers have endless problems getting bees to occupy additional boxes added and lots of resulting problems with bees constantly trying to swarm due to overcrowding. Remember that with a Warre, you have stacked boxes glued together with propolis and potentially comb which means that inspections involve major upsets to the colony - I wouldn't be surprised if the bees go ballistic every time (especially if you tear open brood when you separate boxes) and remember you have to inspect every week!

If I had to have only one hive and it had to be in my garden it might well by a horizontal tbh. They're cheap, not very difficult to inspect if you keep combs in order and inspections don't seem to bother the bees as much because only one strip is open to daylight at a time. The bees I saw in a tbh barely noticed the inspection at all! You can also knock a TBH nuc up out of anything - plantbox, box, whatever you have around! TBHs will be a pain to move though...

 

[dan3008]

I think if you have experience and a local mentor then with regular inspections and annual requeening with a non-swarmy strain your plan might almost work (average less than 1 swarm a year anyway). Remember that books make everything sound easy - finding all the QCs isn't always easy! Each instance of swarming can lead to multiple swarms - prime and casts - and the easier inspections are the more likely you are to catch preparations in time for an artificial swarm or to at least stop multiple casts issuing.

I've never played with a Warre but have my own Langstroths and have had a go with a horizontal TBH. I don't want to start a war, but the Warre might be the worst of both worlds - boxes full of honey and comb are heavy and they just seem to be asking for lots of cross/brace/wild comb which will make inspections very very difficult and give QCs lots of places to hide. I've also seen on other tbh forums that lots of Warre keepers have endless problems getting bees to occupy additional boxes added and lots of resulting problems with bees constantly trying to swarm due to overcrowding. Remember that with a Warre, you have stacked boxes glued together with propolis and potentially comb which means that inspections involve major upsets to the colony - I wouldn't be surprised if the bees go ballistic every time (especially if you tear open brood when you separate boxes) and remember you have to inspect every week!

If I had to have only one hive and it had to be in my garden it might well by a horizontal tbh. They're cheap, not very difficult to inspect if you keep combs in order and inspections don't seem to bother the bees as much because only one strip is open to daylight at a time. The bees I saw in a tbh barely noticed the inspection at all! You can also knock a TBH nuc up out of anything - plantbox, box, whatever you have around! TBHs will be a pain to move though...

Interesting perspective. Has certainly made me consider converting my existing warre into a TBH... Actually, Since I have the spare wood, I'm seriously considering putting holes in the side, and having a box TBH. Where there are multiple box's going across, joined together to make a long (modular) hive.
The thing I really like about box's is its easyer to keep track of where I am, and leave enough honey for the bees to over winter with. I suppose another advantage of a TBH is I can add handles to the tops of the bars if I really need them

 

[Madge]

Thanks. I was leaning to that option anyway.

That was in reply to Brian Bush suggesting:

Hi Dan. I would artificially swarm and pass the artificial swarm on to another beekeeper

Brian and Dan, how are you going to create an artificial swarm in a Warré hive without movable frames? How are you going to find the queen? I suppose you could put a box above the other boxes and wait for the queen to move up. Do you have an extra box?

I don't think it is considerate to keep a hive with immovable frames in an urban area (unless you are there every afternoon to check for swarms).

Can't you perhaps exchange your Warré with somebody who can look after it, for a colony in a hive with movable frames?

 

[Binge]

Have you read Warre's book?
It's available as a digital download.
I've read it, but don't possess a Warre hive.
There's also the modern update by David Heaf, but I haven't read that.
Warre certainly doesn't advocate weekly inspections!
In fact he advocates leaving the bees alone as much as possible, to the extent that he mentions being able to picnic with his dog next to the hives.
There is a section on swarm control in the book, but he also talks about placing enough boxes on in the April to last until the end of the summer if you aren't going to be able to get to the hives in the meantime, so I'm not sure he was terribly bothered!
But hey, it worked for him!

 

[Brian Bush]

That was in reply to Brian Bush suggesting:



Brian and Dan, how are you going to create an artificial swarm in a Warré hive without movable frames? How are you going to find the queen? I suppose you could put a box above the other boxes and wait for the queen to move up. Do you have an extra box?

I assumed the Warre hive would have removable top bars and bars and combs can be removed into another suitable box. I personally do not like topbar hives of any sort in built up areas. The inability to manipulate these hives makes swarming at some point an inevitability.
The other option is to find the queen and clip her wings. Any swarm that issues should return to the hive. The hive would then require careful checking and removal of surplus Queen cells to ensure that there were no cast swarms

 

[dan3008]

I assumed the Warre hive would have removable top bars and bars and combs can be removed into another suitable box. I personally do not like topbar hives of any sort in built up areas. The inability to manipulate these hives makes swarming at some point an inevitability.
The other option is to find the queen and clip her wings. Any swarm that issues should return to the hive. The hive would then require careful checking and removal of surplus Queen cells to ensure that there were no cast swarms

Warre hives do have removable top bars. The design I like is actually has what I would call a 1/2 frame, it has a top bar and side bars, but no foundation. Makes removal of the bars and comb really quite simple.

 

[enrico]

I am afraid I have to try and dissuade you from having a hive in that location. If the bees find a crop you can get thousands of bees travelling in one direction. If that happens to be at head height and through a neighbours garden it will make their garden impossible to go in to. Bees will swarm once twice or three times a year and you have no say as to where that swarm will go and if you will be able to retrieve it. I stand and watch swarms thirty foot up a tree every year, when they leave that initial swarm point for a new home you cannot stop them going into chimneys, sheds, bins, wall cavities, lofts etc. You will become a hated person very quickly. You will lose a swarm however careful you are. I will always promote beekeeping in the right place, I am sorry but your location is not the right place. Find a beekeeper and help them out when you can but steer clear of the plans you presently have....please!
Best wishes
E