Swarm time!

[Show me the honey]

During an inspection today I had the pleasure of watching one of my hives swarm! First one I’ve lost in 3 seasons (that I know of) Well wow what a sight that was I closed up the hive I was looking out and just stood back in amazement, the noise and sight of thousands of bees in the the was crazy I can see why to a non beekeeper how this could of been scary the air was thick with them.

Luckily they landed a few feet away unluckily it was up a tree so ended up standing on the top of stepladder holding a box to shake them into which of course didn’t go too well as they were spread out over the branch so ended up with hundreds landing on me I was covered!! So got them into the box and realised I now had to get back down the ladder with no hands and a box full of bees! Probably should of got some help

Anyways got them in the box’s think she’s in there as the ones on the ladder and that landed back in the tree have now gone down into the nuc will be needing hiving soon though they were nice size swarm. Gave the other hives a thorough looking over they were all good so what a day I’ve had!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Put them in a full size hive and put that in the place of the hive they came from. Take the swarmed hive well away. That way you’ll catch all the remaining flyers and maybe get some honey

 

[Show me the honey]

Put them in a full size hive and put that in the place of the hive they came from. Take the swarmed hive well away. That way you’ll catch all the remaining flyers and maybe get some honey

Yes will Be putting them in a full sized hive tomorrow just hailing they can sit tight till i get there

 

[eltalia]

Yes will Be putting them in a full sized hive tomorrow just hailing they can sit tight till i get there

With L U C K they'll be busy building comb in that box, assuming you've
locked them down.
Now... there is the casts to prevent, as easily done as preventing that prime
swarm in minutes of time - control the queen to control the bees(swarming).
I attach a retail example, however an entrance bar set at just 4.5mm high will
get the job done. Tooooo easy.

Bill

 

[Erichalfbee]

No need for all that
Just put in a frame of brood
Back at the swarmed hive just thin the swarm cells down to one open one and repeat in five days

 

[eltalia]

No need for all that
Just put in a frame of brood
Back at the swarmed hive just thin the swarm cells down to
one open one and repeat in five days

... a few minutes with some hand tools and *no* internal work
over using resources and labour plus timing (weather).
N0T forgetting the "wishin' an' hope" adrenilin pumped into it all.

Crikey y'all sure got this b'kpn gig licked!

/wry smile/

Bill

 

[Show me the honey]

No need for all that
Just put in a frame of brood
Back at the swarmed hive just thin the swarm cells down to one open one and repeat in five days

Thanks Erichalfbee
A frame of brood why didn’t I think of that at the time!

 

[maddydog]

With L U C K they'll be busy building comb in that box, assuming you've
locked them down.
Now... there is the casts to prevent, as easily done as preventing that prime
swarm in minutes of time - control the queen to control the bees(swarming).
I attach a retail example, however an entrance bar set at just 4.5mm high will
get the job done. Tooooo easy.

Bill

Bill, are these standard practice in Oz?

Have you explained the theory elsewhere? I did have a look through your past posts but mostly came up with abuse from Jenkins

I gather you apply the qr during swarm season then remove it when you see a virgin? I assume the first virgin out kills mother and siblings? How do you know only one virgin is in there?

Personally, I'll stick with what works for me but I'm always interested in different methods.

 

[eltalia]

@maddydog
"I gather you apply the qr during swarm season then remove it
when you see a virgin? I assume the first virgin out kills mother
and siblings? How do you know only one virgin is in there?"

A QR is a tool, not a fixture. It's prime use is to deny the swarm urge *before*
it starts, thereby saving all that energy put into the urge in preparation.
Sure it can be used *after* the urge has produced "charged cups" however
that then requires further adjustment in - as you note - sorting the product
of the urge, a possible virgin queen being one example.
And yes, in various forms queen restriction as swarm management is used in
Autralia.
How widely today I am not current with but certainly locally, and many an image of
Apiaries from around the world show hundreds of boxes with that particular device
(I illustrate) fitted to entrances. As it is also used for closures and pest control that
there may not be concluded the image reflects a b'keep doing swarm management
over the whole of that apiary.
Okay?

Bill

 

[maddydog]

Thanks Bill.

So the qr is put in place at the start of swarming season but not necessarily when an individual hive has started swarm preparations. The queen can't physically leave the hive so the colony doesn't initiate swarming, is that right? Do you know how the colony realises the queen can't leave so doesn't even start the process?

 

[eltalia]

Thanks Bill.

....no worries, too easy.

So the qr is put in place at the start of swarming season but not necessarily when an individual hive has started swarm preparations. The queen can't physically leave the hive so the colony doesn't initiate swarming, is that right? Do you know how the colony realises the queen can't leave so doesn't even start the process?

Pretty much you have the concept in a nutshell, yes.

To shed some light onto your second question I'll offer if we can agree not every colony
of any particular strain swarms every year then we can apply the four 'phases' of
ecological process for Apis - Establishment/Survival/Expansion/Reproduction
in subverting Reproduction and Establishment for all.
For any particular local anywhere on the Planet the apiarist knows the timing for each of
these and so manages around them, basic stuff, right.
Yet we (royal) do not know what we don't know about the micro inputs for bees of each
and so it is not possible to do "beekeeping by numbers and calendar" as soooo many
strive to run an apiary, this approach just does n0t work out.
We *must* follow the ecological nuances *and* fully understand as much as is
known/proven for the insects biology.
Pay attention and the bees will tell you when they are switching from Expansion to
Reproduction, thinking about it.
Climate used to be one solid reliable indicator, even down to an exact day most years, but
that has changed and so now we (royal) must pay attention to biological signals.
One of which is the incremental slowing of lay accompanied by the bees switching her
lay of drone from the lower extents of the broodnest to the central area of outer frames,
well away from the broodnest and often even well past pollen/bread stores.
For Expansion we (Man) do not usually desire any deviation of the queen from worker
brood lay so as soon as the bees begin to think Reproduction is on we change their mind in
reconfigging the broodnest - this practice is laid down in many an olde writing. However
today (circa 20th Century) we know bees sense a queen confined, and so change behaviour.
Applying that input has been done traditionly through pushcages with varied success, but
that restriction of the ability for her to be called out always works.
The huge upside of QR use is it can be done quickly with no invasive action required.
And let's say the b'keep gets it wrong and that colony had no intention of swarming
regardless of ecological inputs...?.. so what, no harm done.
Compare that outcome to making "on the fly" suppositions in moving frames/boxes around
only to find on next inspection a lazy hive loaded with cups/QCs.
A nobrainer in my b00k.

Bill

 

[maddydog]

Thanks Bill for your explanation

 

[Erichalfbee]

Doesn’t the contraption get blocked by dead drones?

 

[eltalia]

Thanks Bill for your explanation

No worries.
I totally understand you will do for your bees your way, and that's fine by me.
Only know there is an alternative to shuffling boxes and counting days for QCs.

@erichalfbee
http://carrsconsulting.com/honeybee/normal/anatomybee.htm

... in support of your question, noting the question truly belongs
in a different section of this UK forum.
Enjoy.

Bill

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Bill,

Would a standard metal queen excluder (reduced in size by cutting up into a few bars only), and screwed over the entrance, work as a queen restrictor do you reckon?

 

[SDM]

..
today (circa 20th Century) we know bees sense a queen confined, and so change behaviour.

/QUOTE]

We know that bees change behaviour when a queen is confined within the hive but that bares no resemblance to a queen confined "to" the hive. Nor do I see how any of the mechanisms involved in confinement within the hive that change behaviour ( reduced footprint pheromone for example ) could apply to confinement to the hive.
Lastly I see no evolutionary reason for bees to be able to sense a queen confined to the hive as the colony would be doomed to the lifespan of their queen anyway. Surely they would assume She got in, she can get out ?
If all the above is "known " Simply give us the mechanism
I still don't see an answer to the question of trapped drones either.
At the end of the day drones are wider than queens, if it excludes queens it excludes drones.

 

[eltalia]

Hi Bill,

Would a standard metal queen excluder (reduced in size by cutting up into a few bars only), and screwed over the entrance, work as a queen restrictor do you reckon?

Yeh sure... buuuut there is then introduced a possibilty pollen bags could be lost.
I myself prefer the bar concept, and for two reasons;
1. the bees "belly down" to crawl in, yet there is no true barrier to "hunt and peck"
in finding a way in as exists with meshed QX adaptations.
2. the height is adjustable to the .001mm - thus a bar allowing micro adjustment for
dynamic difference in entrance sizes and bee size where one is running 'small' bees.

A third maybe irrelevant reason (for others) is across an apiary the cost of cutting
up 250 32mm high strips of aluminum is far less time - and so money - in hacking up a
dozen or so QXs.
Thing is, individually these options can be tried... a bespoke device costs next to nothing
and can do no harm in those few weeks it is run, or indeed for the few days after swarm capture.


Bill

 

[eltalia]

@SDM

.... errrrm, nobody knows *all* the inputs to urge initiation. I conceded as much
in my earlier post. All that is known is the reactive, easy enough to see for yourself.

You know or should know Apis bees do n0t think in Human, so your "she got in,
she'll get out"(paraphrased) is just silliness. Period.

A QR does indeed exclude drones, another advantage when one keeps in mind
drones are gypsys... but to say they are trapped shows a depth of ignorance I
cannot stretch any empathy towards in forgiving a person (having bees) such
off the wall thoughts.

Bill

 

[Repwoc]

@SDM
A QR does indeed exclude drones, another advantage when one keeps in mind
drones are gypsys... but to say they are trapped shows a depth of ignorance I
cannot stretch any empathy towards in forgiving a person (having bees) such
off the wall thoughts.
Bill

hi Bill - please excuse our ignorance, but if drones can't get out of the hive surely that means they are trapped inside it. Unless they can get out but not back in - a sort of drone one-way valve.

 

[eltalia]

@Repwoc

A read of post #9 and it's companion #11 should help you
better grasp the use of a QR.
As additional help?
IF the thread gets into discussing drone 'control' it could all
get philosophical, fast, and so lose Fact to emotion.
Suffice to mention (remember) two known facets of Expansion
- drone laying boosts at the peak of Expansion, and queens
will n0t usually mate with their sons.
So ask yourself then - does a QR 'trap' drones or is it in reality
the ticket to a longer Life?

Moot to myself as personal choice in light of our policy to buy in
known genetics and deny the "locals" that 'corruption' of their
genetics.
Buuuut OMMV applies, and does for two local(30klm away) b'keeps.

Bill