Swarm possibly queenless now a queen cell

[Tony19]

This is I'm sure a simple question which hopefully will elicit a simple answer. I hived a caught swarm about 5 weeks ago, today no evidence of BIAS, I can't see any eggs but I have trouble seeing them anyway. As you're probably aware I'm new to beekeeping!
I have no access to any frames with brood or eggs.
So, they appear to have built a queen cell, which is still open.
Would they still build queen cells if there were no eggs, brood or queen present?

 

[enrico]

They might build one as they have no brood but as I said in your other post, it could be a swarm headed by a virgin queen. She needs to get mated and start laying. There may well be a few eggs around. I would leave it another week and look for larvae which are easier to see before getting an other queen. Are they quiet? Do they fan when you open the roof? My advice for what it is worth is to be patient at the moment.
If you do have a queen and she does start laying they will deal with the queen cell

E

 

[Tony19]

They might build one as they have no brood but as I said in your other post, it could be a swarm headed by a virgin queen. She needs to get mated and start laying. There may well be a few eggs around. I would leave it another week and look for larvae which are easier to see before getting an other queen. Are they quiet? Do they fan when you open the roof? My advice for what it is worth is to be patient at the moment.
If you do have a queen and she does start laying they will deal with the queen cell

E

Thanks again, as you can probably tell I'm possibly panicking a little as this is my only colony and I'm trying to get things started to build for next year. Patience is not my strong point, ask my wife!

They are quiet not sure about fanning, could you explain in a bit more detail. Thanks

 

[Bakerbee]

Fanning is easy to spot. They will stick their bottoms up and flap fast "fan" their wings.

 

[JWF]

Fanning is easy to spot. They will stick their bottoms up and flap fast "fan" their wings.

Like the attached pic - they're releasing a scent from their Nasanov glands.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasonov_pheromone

 

[enrico]

It MAY indicate a queen is present, mated or not!
Nothing is set in stone, but every hint helps
E

 

[Eyeman]

It MAY indicate a queen is present, mated or not!
Nothing is set in stone, but every hint helps
E

two types of fanning
Fanning on frames without bottoms down- very suggestive of Q-

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Find someone local with a frame of eggs... Get more hives.. One is just no good

 

[Tony19]

Again, thanks all for your replies, had another look yesterday and it looks like they are building another queen cell......not sure what's going on with them so taking your advice I'll just leave them to sort themselves out and call it a learning experience.

 

[birdsandbees]

I've had hopelessly Queenless colonies build queen cups in desperation but they aren't charged, you haven't said whether there was anything in it so I'm guessing not.

I have just introduced a queen into a Q- Nuc containing a swarm picked up a few weeks ago, they may have had a virgin which has been lost on a mating flight, fortunately for me having a few spare queens in mating Nucs I was able to test them by putting the caged queen on top of the frames, within a few minutes they were attending the queen and were obviously very happy to see her with no sign of aggression so she was released.

don't just let them dwindle, that's pointless! if there's nothing in the queen cups/cells I'd suggest you have a similar situation to the one above, buy a mated queen and get her introduced as soon as possible, use a push in cage as a precaution if you aren't able to read the bees reaction to her.

 

[Tony19]

Still no sign of eggs or brood, had a really good look today and I'm now convinced there is no queen. they now appear to be laying brood as there are a number of sealed brood cells.
I've ordered a mated queen so will introduce her as soon as possible. I'm fully aware that after all this time they may not accept her particularly with sealed brood cells present, but I'll take the chance and see if I can save this colony. I'll leave the cage in between a couple of frames for two days then break the seal so they can remove the plug and release the queen. Onward and upward!!

 

[Beefriendly]

Still no sign of eggs or brood, had a really good look today and I'm now convinced there is no queen. they now appear to be laying brood as there are a number of sealed brood cells.

Unless you have introduced a frame with brood who do you think layed all the eggs for all this brood they are now sealing?
I'd be very hesitant to introduce a new queen until you know for sure what is going on.

 

[Tony19]

Unless you have introduced a frame with brood who do you think layed all the eggs for all this brood they are now sealing?
I'd be very hesitant to introduce a new queen until you know for sure what is going on.

Ok I take your point but could they not be from laying workers, rather than the queen? Sorry I should have pointed out that all the sealed cells are drone brood, my mistake.

 

[Beefriendly]

Quite an important point that.
Explains the queen cells they are drawing on drone brood.
If you think you have laying workers I'd be even more reluctant to add a queen. Although if you have no choice ....

 

[Tony19]

Quite an important point that.
Explains the queen cells they are drawing on drone brood.
If you think you have laying workers I'd be even more reluctant to add a queen. Although if you have no choice ....

Yes I remember at school more attention to detail was on most of my reports. I need to slow down and reflect a bit more, I knew what I meant but failed to articulate properly. I know I'm taking a risk especially with laying workers but feel I have to give it a go.

 

[Millet]

Ok I take your point but could they not be from laying workers, rather than the queen? Sorry I should have pointed out that all the sealed cells are drone brood, my mistake.

I have been in a rare situation twice with laying workers which are a proper pain in the butt..
A frame of brood from another colony fettled one colony.. the other died of..
You need to look at the brood frames for multiple eggs in cells, that is a classic laying worker,, ignore comments that the do not lay in the bottom of the cell as they do..it is a hard one to distinguish between drone laying queen and laying worker..
Good luck.

 

[Tony19]

I have been in a rare situation twice with laying workers which are a proper pain in the butt..
A frame of brood from another colony fettled one colony.. the other died of..
You need to look at the brood frames for multiple eggs in cells, that is a classic laying worker,, ignore comments that the do not lay in the bottom of the cell as they do..it is a hard one to distinguish between drone laying queen and laying worker..
Good luck.

Any other advice would be appreciated, can you isolate the drone laying workers? Introducing a queen is my only option for this colony. I have a new nuc which arrived last weekend but my priority for this is to build for winter and not mess with it as this will be my seed colony to give me three hives next year

 

[Millet]

Any other advice would be appreciated, can you isolate the drone laying workers? Introducing a queen is my only option for this colony. I have a new nuc which arrived last weekend but my priority for this is to build for winter and not mess with it as this will be my seed colony to give me three hives next year

You are goosed with a laying worker (sorry) but you have hope with a drone laying Queen, all you need to do is find her..

 

[Tony19]

Well queen now in the hive but still in the delivery cage, a couple of days then break the seal and I'll either have a sustainable colony or one that will sadly dwindle away!

 

[Tony19]

Well queen now in the hive but still in the delivery cage, a couple of days then break the seal and I'll either have a sustainable colony or one that will sadly dwindle away!

Left queen for 4 days in the plastic box she came in pressed into a frame. As the hive bees were calm and easily removed with a finger and showing no aggression towards her I removed the fondant plug and walked her in off my hand. Checked today all calm and queen still in the land of the living. Decided to add a rapid feeder of 2:1 sugar solution as a belt and braces approach, time will tell if I've been successful, but it felt wrong just to let them go.