Swarm in September?

[popcornpie]

Yesterday afternoon one of my hives swarmed. Luckily I was able to catch it by climbing a ladder and cutting off a branch! I am just trying to understand why this happened because I thought swarming time was over.

I hadn't done a full inspection for a while, just been checking the queen was laying by lifting the middle frames. Getting them ready for winter, I had started to feed them with thick syrup (one rapid feeder full so far) and vaped them (twice so far).

Anyway after the swarm, I went through the hive. It is a national brood and a half. The shallow was wall to wall brood with a frame of uncapped honey at each end. I found and destroyed about 10 queen cells, 2 sealed and some of the rest had lava in. The deep had some frames with areas of brood, a full frame of pollen, one frame of uncapped honey but otherwise lots of empty cells and plenty of room.

The weather was warm and sunny, pollen coming in but not much nectar around. The ivy isn't out yet. So, did they run out of room, were they hungry or another reason? She is a new queen (from a swarm given to me earlier in the year).

I have now reunited the bees back into the hive by putting them into 2 supers with newspaper between, no queen excluder. So far today all seems quiet! I'm just hoping the mated queen survives a as I couldn't find the new queen so they will have to fight it out.

Also, I'm not sure though whether to continue with feeding and vaping? Once they are settled should I swap around the brood boxes to encourage the queen to lay in there?

Sorry about all the questions, it just took me by surprise. I didn't expect to be dealing with a swarm in September!

 

[beeno]

Hi, Bad luck. Why do you think there is a virgin queen in there? Have you seen a vacated QC?

 

[popcornpie]

No I didn't see any obviously vacated cells but there were a few empty ones. Hopefully the new queen hadn't yet come out. So was it just bad luck they swarmed or something I did or didn't do?

 

[Eyeman]

I have now reunited the bees back into the hive by putting them into 2 supers with newspaper between, no queen excluder. So far today all seems quiet! I'm just hoping the mated queen survives a as I couldn't find the new queen so they will have to fight it out.

A swarm typically occurs when the first QC is capped so you won't have a second queen to worry about as you have removed all queen cells. The question is will they raise more queen cells?
Why they swarmed? If they came from a swarm then they might be a strain of bees that swarm more than once a year or decide to swarm before the nest is congested.
I would check them again for QC's in 5 days or clip the queens wings and check in a week.
What should you do if you find they are producing more queen cells?

 

[beeno]

Now, too soon to reunite, the virgin will kill your laying queen or they will swarm again. Need to put swarm in their own nuc/hive next to original hive. I would then go into original hive and remove all QCs and then go back six days later to remove emergency QCs if any. By that time there would be no eggs or small larvae to make any emergency QC from - they are hopelessly queenless. Then you can unite the swarm colony through newspaper or buy in a laying queen if you want to increase the number of colonies.
However, you could remove all but one open QC with a fat larva inside and see if she gets mated and if not you got your laying queen in reserve to reunite if she does not get mated. This late in the season she probably will not get mated. However, it all involves more work! Good luck

 

[Angularity]

In this situation, if the queen doesn't get mated, will she live till the Spring?

 

[beeno]

She may, but she will be a drone layer (undersized drones at that), comb will be ruined and you will have no foragers!

 

[Angularity]

She may, but she will be a drone layer (undersized drones at that), comb will be ruined and you will have no foragers!

I have a small (nuc sized) colony with a queen due to emerge on the 7th. There are still some drones in my other three colonies, all of which are in good shape for the winter (so no benefit in uniting them). The weather over the next 10 days is due to be around 17-18C, so I think I'll leave it and hope.

 

[beeno]

I have a small (nuc sized) colony with a queen due to emerge on the 7th. There are still some drones in my other three colonies, all of which are in good shape for the winter (so no benefit in uniting them). The weather over the next 10 days is due to be around 17-18C, so I think I'll leave it and hope.

Why not in those circumstances. Fingers crossed. Let us know how you get on.

 

[enrico]

A couple of things. You say it was a new queen that came with a swarm. That suggests it was an older queen as she led a swarm, unless it was a virgin but that sounds unlikely. She built up a good hive and had stores so she did what she did and swarmed. That is why she is there, for survival of the species.
You always need to be prepared for this so always have a set up ready, a nuc or another hive with new frames in ready to go. That way you can hive a swarm straight away.
In this situation the last thing you should have done is remove all the queen cells but I can understand how panic sets in. You would have been better to remove the old queen and leave a queen cell or two before combining.
The chances are that as soon as new queen cells are built, if not before, the old queen will be off again so be prepared this time. Get a hive ready.
Leave a good queen cell in the original hive if she goes again.
I still have loads of drones around and I would imagine Berkshire is similar, so mating is not out of the question.
Early next spring, if they get through the winter, you would need to see if eggs laid are workers or drones, at that point, if they are drones you could combine the two hives.
So..... What to do now, all you can do is wait and see. I would go back in in five days and see if you can spot any queen cells. At that point be prepared for your next action.
These are my thoughts for what they are worth.
Hope it all goes well, keep us in touch with what happens so we can all learn.
E

 

[popcornpie]

Thank you for the advice. I should have put them in my nuc box but I was taken completely by surprise and so I was unprepared and had no spare frames ready. Also it was quite a big swarm and I thought they might not have room in there and I don't have any spare brood boxes at the moment. Before this happened I was actually hoping to reduce back down to 2 hives not increase to 4!

So I am keeping fingers and toes crossed that they are happy where they are now they have more room. But I will make up some frames for my nuc box tonight just in case.

 

[pargyle]

A couple of things. You say it was a new queen that came with a swarm. That suggests it was an older queen as she led a swarm, unless it was a virgin but that sounds unlikely. She built up a good hive and had stores so she did what she did and swarmed. That is why she is there, for survival of the species.
You always need to be prepared for this so always have a set up ready, a nuc or another hive with new frames in ready to go. That way you can hive a swarm straight away.
In this situation the last thing you should have done is remove all the queen cells but I can understand how panic sets in. You would have been better to remove the old queen and leave a queen cell or two before combining.
The chances are that as soon as new queen cells are built, if not before, the old queen will be off again so be prepared this time. Get a hive ready.
Leave a good queen cell in the original hive if she goes again.
I still have loads of drones around and I would imagine Berkshire is similar, so mating is not out of the question.
Early next spring, if they get through the winter, you would need to see if eggs laid are workers or drones, at that point, if they are drones you could combine the two hives.
So..... What to do now, all you can do is wait and see. I would go back in in five days and see if you can spot any queen cells. At that point be prepared for your next action.
These are my thoughts for what they are worth.
Hope it all goes well, keep us in touch with what happens so we can all learn.
E

Yep ... good advice - shutting the door after the horse has bolted unfortunately .. It's never a good idea to destroy all the queen cells - it just won't stop them swarming. If you have a swarm then it's always a new box for the swarm and deal with the results of the swarm ...ie the remaining queen cells.

 

[beeno]

Hi again, Sorry I missed that you already had destroyed all the QCs. I have done your procedure once and it worked out ok, but not something one would recommend to others. You might be lucky too, but keep a look out for more QCs!

 

[popcornpie]

Swarm in September update

Well, the good news is that so far the bees are still in their hive and the queen is still in there and laying.

However, I'm not sure for how long. When I looked 5 days after the swarm, I found more queen cells. This time I was better prepared and ready to do an artificial swarm into my nuc box. However, unfortunately, try as I might, I could not find the queen. It's a big hive and they were very aggressive. So in the end to stop the immediate threat of them swarming again, I decided to destroy the queen cells again. Not what I wanted but it's done now. I decided it was very unlikely that a new queen would get mated now anyway as the weather is much colder and my hives are all throwing out their drones.

I also swapped around the brood boxes, putting the deep box which has plenty of room above the shallow box which is full of brood and putting the super with uncapped honey at the very bottom. My thinking here is this will give them more room and as well as giving them something to do other than make swarm cells.

Now I am going to leave them alone. I think there is a strong possibility they will either swarm again or end up with a drone laying queen next Spring but I am still hoping they will lose the urge to swarm, stop making queen cells and settle down now we are getting towards the end of Sept. Fingers and toes still crossed!

 

[Millet]

Well, the good news is that so far the bees are still in their hive and the queen is still in there and laying.

However, I'm not sure for how long. When I looked 5 days after the swarm, I found more queen cells. This time I was better prepared and ready to do an artificial swarm into my nuc box. However, unfortunately, try as I might, I could not find the queen. It's a big hive and they were very aggressive. So in the end to stop the immediate threat of them swarming again, I decided to destroy the queen cells again. Not what I wanted but it's done now. I decided it was very unlikely that a new queen would get mated now anyway as the weather is much colder and my hives are all throwing out their drones.

I also swapped around the brood boxes, putting the deep box which has plenty of room above the shallow box which is full of brood and putting the super with uncapped honey at the very bottom. My thinking here is this will give them more room and as well as giving them something to do other than make swarm cells.

Now I am going to leave them alone. I think there is a strong possibility they will either swarm again or end up with a drone laying queen next Spring but I am still hoping they will lose the urge to swarm, stop making queen cells and settle down now we are getting towards the end of Sept. Fingers and toes still crossed!

I don't know if i have this correct but have you put a empty box above the brood, if you have it needs moving as they do not want empty space above them, i have a almost full brood box here so i put a empty shallow super below just to be on the safe side but i would never put a empty above them this time of the year.

 

[popcornpie]

No the deep brood box isn't empty. It's full of bees, some stores and some brood but it does have more room than the shallow brood box. I was hoping the queen would move up there but I don't know! As a beginner, this hive has been a challenge since Spring!

 

[Erichalfbee]

No the deep brood box isn't empty. It's full of bees, some stores and some brood but it does have more room than the shallow brood box. I was hoping the queen would move up there but I don't know! As a beginner, this hive has been a challenge since Spring!

Good wheeze getting them to move that honey up, as you say.....give them something to do. If they are not in a poly box you might consider making them a PIR cosy....that's what I would do

 

[popcornpie]

What is a PIR cosy?

 

[Millet]

What is a PIR cosy?

Its a bit of a faff on but it is basically a big box made out of celotex insulation to fit over the hive, £20 odd pound a sheet it is to buy which will do 1.5 hives ,it costs not much more to buy a poly hive brood box so i know what i will be doing next year

 

[popcornpie]

Thank you. I think we've got some of that left over from an extension we had done last year. Have you painted it? What paint did you use? How did you join the sides together? Do you still have to put woodpecker protection around it? Sorry for all the questions!