Supering... some info.

[Poly Hive]

How and when to super.

I see that this topic is beginning to surface so thought to make a few suggestions.

When to super. When they are strong enough is the straight answer and so need the space.

And says you that tell me nothing. Well you have to read the colony, and the time I super is when there are 8 frames of brood, note not patches of brood but good solid frames, and they have a thick cover of bees.

So how do you super?

Gently open the colony, remove the crown board, and check there is no brace comb going to interfere with the placing of your queen excluder (if you are using one). Then put your super on top of the excluder, crown board back on then roof. You have supered!

What can go wrong? As ever there is a risk of crushing the queen. Mitigated by smoking and looking carefully to see she is out hof harms way.

Bees fail to enter the super. This can be a few things. Not strong enough, drop in temperature, lack of flow.

You can counter by removing the excluder for a few days but be aware of course that the queen will likely take a trip up stairs. (queens love to go up) Also it pays to have insulation on top of the super to help the bees with wax working.

If you have foundation, and many of you will this season, then things are slightly more tricky. Assuming you are using a timber super then the bees will begin to work the frames above the brood nest as this is the warmest place.

As the combs are built by the bees move them to one side and insert more foundation, preferably in-between partly or fully drawn combs to help them avoid the temptation to build brace comb. Why would they do that? In giving two sheets of foundation side by side you are outside the bee space and so the bees respond to guidance here. When all your combs are built and a good half are filling, then you will want to consider adding the next super.

You are in a better position now if all you have (or had) was foundation as you can pull a couple of combs from the first super and put them in the middle of the new super, #2 with of course a frame of foundation between them and off you go again.

When your first super is full, that is to say all the combs waxed over (capped) then you will want to extract it. For that you need a clearer borad, or blower, or a brush, though I am no fan of brushes, and of course an empty super to clear into. So let's count.

1st super is full, 2nd super is being worked on, and you need another one to clear into. Makes 3 eh?

How would you do this? Put the worked on super on top of the excluder, the empty super on top of that (by empty, it has a full set of frames and foundation, empty by reason of no nectar in it or honey) then the clearer board, and then the full super. After the full one is taken away the configuration is pretty much as before.

After extraction if you are careful and dinna break the combs you will be the proud owner (hopefully) of 30 odd pounds of the most precious honey you will ever have, your hard won FIRST honey, and a set of drawn combs to use again and again.

Enjoy.

PH

 

[freethorpe bees]

Thanks for the info PH. It's so useful I'm going to print it up and refer to it!
FB

 

[Hombre]

and the time I super is when there are 8 frames of brood, note not patches of brood but good solid frames, and they have a thick cover of bees.

I note that PH uses Poly Langstroths that have ten frames in the box and his bees are Carniolan, which are recognised as generally being serial swarmy.

I also note that with 14x12 boxes and eleven frames, that my Carniolans appear to decide to start making plans to decamp at seven frames of brood.

Any one else with any form of box full of Carniolans that have more than seven good frames of brood and the bees aren't busy making swarm cells?

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry to say you note incorrectly.

On my poly Nationals of old, which took 12 frames, and my poly Langstroths, I did indeed use Langstroth Supers. I also had timber nats with oddly timber nat supers. Quite what odds that makes to the principles of supering I cannot see.

As to what bee I am running how do you know? You are stating that I do this and that and yet I am I and I am posting about what I do, so with great deference I ask you politely to not put words in my mouth.

PH

 

[johnandyrob]

That aside I was wondering if this should be made a sticky their are allot of new beeks who dont realize how too or how many supers to use.

 

[justme]

Thanks Polyhive and Hombre.
Great quick to refer info, however as I have a carni swarm I picked up latish last year I'll maybe super that one at 7 frames as I just dont know:.)

 

[Storm™]

Thank you Poly that was brief and concise. I understand that flow/weather/health of the bees will change this but rough time scales please. In the respect that you can read all you want but they do not seem to define how long this will roughly take. Assuming good flow etc are you looking at 2 months - 2 weeks - 6 months. I ask because needing 3 supers as you explained it means I have to get another one made up. In readiness. And that means I need to get another lift made as well. Hence what very rough sort of time scale from brand new hive to introducing bees could you expect to be looking at shuffling in a new super. Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[Polyanwood]

There are no silly questions

It depends on the strength of the flow and the strength of your colony. I have supered and come back the next week to find they have filled the middle frames and then come back a week later and found there are no frames that are still dry.

I super again when all the frames are wet with nectar.

What do other people do?

 

[Poly Hive]

Worst case scenario, from top to bottom.

Three days to fill and cap a super of drawn comb. I am serious.

Never, and chewed the foundation to bits.

Beginners, and some experienced beekeepers can get very badly caught out by how fast a good going colony can move.

PH

 

[Storm™]

Worst case scenario, from top to bottom.

Three days to fill and cap a super of drawn comb. I am serious.

Never, and chewed the foundation to bits.

Beginners, and some experienced beekeepers can get very badly caught out by how fast a good going colony can move.

PH

Thank you both, as I suspected it will be something I have to have ready, rather than get when I feel the time is right.

 

[MJBee]

Congratulations Storm, you have hoisted aboard a lesson that some beekeepers never learn - ie try and be one step ahead of your bees.

Good post PH, getting the basics right makes life so much easier.

 

[Poly Hive]

Thanks and let's take things a step further.

While your precious first super is being draen out your colony is gaining strength and nectar is arriving by the drop load. ( a worker bee carries a drop as you would see from a nasal dropper)

Where is this nectar going that you hear the hive humming in the evening about?

In the brood nest.

Ho hum this is not so good as your queen is liable to be restricted and we know what happens then? The dreaded grub appears in the queen cups, and your darling hive is heading happily (for this is sex!) towards swarming point.

And what can we do I hear you moan....

Use your hive tool.

Now a hive tool is a very curious object, you can hammer with it, screw with it (clean you minds please) pull nails with it, prise with it, and oh yes you can bruise combs with it.

Your super is being drawn out, the bees are busy with it, so remove it, remove the excluder and now be careful as she is about somewhere.

However she is unlikely to be on the combs I want you to work on as they are stores combs which the bees have been busy filling with the nectar now near honey that they ain't got space for upstairs.

Bruise the bonny white cappings with the flat end of your hive tool. It is what it is for after all. Gently press it into the wax and see it wet, darken, and that is all you need to do. Bruise all the stores combs, and if you are very adventuresome you can put one in the middle of the brood nest.

The bees will shift the honey out asap, as they know all too well that that space is for brood and oops you just gained a brood comb... and they will shift the honey upstairs to your super, making the upstairs workers work faster to accommodate the goodies that are being sent up from below.

This is called working the brood box, a skill not to be over looked.

PH

 

[Arfermo]

There are no silly questions

It depends on the strength of the flow and the strength of your colony. I have supered and come back the next week to find they have filled the middle frames and then come back a week later and found there are no frames that are still dry.

I super again when all the frames are wet with nectar.

What do other people do?

One or more of the most experienced beeks in my BKA sick 3 supers on right at the outset of the season. Some drawn, others not and all his colonies (30 odd) are on brood and a half minimum. Another interesting point is that an old boy who has kept bees from the age of 7 until now when he is 82 (not a mistype) makes access for the foragers easier by drilling holes direct into the supers for them to by pass putting mucky feet all over the brood comb. Towards the end of the season he put corks in the holes. Another similarly experienced beek does it a little differently he slides the heap of supers one by one giving the bees access where the lugs are. Different method, similar aim - ie speeding up honey production at the first flow period when it is most desirable, especially with mountains of local rape available in this agricultral county. I will be doing likewise soon.

 

[Storm™]

One or more of the most experienced beeks in my BKA sick 3 supers on right at the outset of the season. Some drawn, others not and all his colonies (30 odd) are on brood and a half minimum. Another interesting point is that an old boy who has kept bees from the age of 7 until now when he is 82 (not a mistype) makes access for the foragers easier by drilling holes direct into the supers for them to by pass putting mucky feet all over the brood comb. Towards the end of the season he put corks in the holes. Another similarly experienced beek does it a little differently he slides the heap of supers one by one giving the bees access where the lugs are. Different method, similar aim - ie speeding up honey production at the first flow period when it is most desirable, especially with mountains of local rape available in this agricultral county. I will be doing likewise soon.

I have read about this too. Seems like a sensible idea but as newbie I wont be doing it. Aside from the point that a WBC wouldnt lend itself to this, will it not also make the colony harder to defend, and therefore robbing would happen more easily. If not in constant view the hive could be over run in an hour?

 

[Arfermo]

I have read about this too. Seems like a sensible idea but as newbie I wont be doing it. Aside from the point that a WBC wouldnt lend itself to this, will it not also make the colony harder to defend, and therefore robbing would happen more easily. If not in constant view the hive could be over run in an hour?

I see - you think the longtime experts (and others I know of) are idiots? Why is it you cannot accept the facts without quibbling and use the information with a bit of common sense if you have any, Newbie or not?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

I see - you think the longtime experts (and others I know of) are idiots? Why is it you cannot accept the facts without quibbling and use the information with a bit of common sense if you have any, Newbie or not?

Calm down Afermo, Storm was only raising a legitimate question - enquiring minds and all that. Presumably the answer is that the corks go in when jaspers are about. And also it would be somewhat tricky with a WBC!

 

[Storm™]

Originally Posted by Arfermo
Why is it you cannot accept the facts without quibbling and use the information with a bit of common sense if you have any, Newbie or not?

Aunt Labia, is that you??

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks and let's take things a step further.


This is called working the brood box, a skill not to be over looked.

PH

Thanks PH you've made that beautifully clear....even I could try that

 

[Erichalfbee]

Another interesting point is that an old boy who has kept bees from the age of 7 until now when he is 82 (not a mistype) makes access for the foragers easier by drilling holes direct into the supers for them to by pass putting mucky feet all over the brood comb. Towards the end of the season he put corks in the holes. Another similarly experienced beek does it a little differently he slides the heap of supers one by one giving the bees access where the lugs are. Different method, similar aim - ie speeding up honey production at the first flow period when it is most desirable, especially with mountains of local rape available in this agricultral county. I will be doing likewise soon.

So could you put a very shallow three sided eke on (leaving an entrance similar to that afforded by the floor below) at the bottom of each super and simply remove at wasp time leaving them to use (and defend) the usual entrance under the brood box?

 

[Black Comb]

One of the bee inspectors had a set up like this at the Carlisle meet in the summer. I didn't take a lot of notice as I was interested in something else. But it was just the one hole drilled in the super.
Would an eke under each would encourage them to fill it with comb?