Supering/Brooding…Up/Down

[BeeBeeKa]

This thread takes roots from there: http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=450644&posted=1#post450644
[FONT=&quot]Please reply to all my messages from there in this current thread…Thank you.
[/FONT]

Yes, but if the majority of its frames was occupied by brood, then there is a need for an extra space for syrup isn’t it? I mean there is no guaranty that the weather will permit a late feeding, when amount of brood is reduced enough for BB to be filled up with syrup. So, personally I would prefer to feed them…let`s say in august (during an outbreak of rainy days, preferably ), using second BB, and when it`s full, I`ll set the third (or super) on in order to harvest honey the rest of the season, If varroa infestation is not in a high level( less than 5 dead mites drops a day?)How is the plan?

So, you are going to feed "syrup", then harvest "honey". Of course your bees will keep them separate.

I do not know, I am a newbee, that` s why I ask ” How is the plan?” The only thing I have in this regard is my theory that as brood shrinks in August, the bees will fill the vacant cells with a nectar they bring in, while an excess of that nectar should go up in a super(or BB), over the full syrup super(BB)(or even underneath of it, but over the box with a brood). The mixing of syrup with nectar could take place when the brood expands during a spring/early summer season, when bees transfer syrop/honey from cells in order to provide more space for Quinn to lay eggs. But some beekeepers told me that they did not experienced this sort of a problem… not saying – why I think that If bees have enough space for their brood, they won’t transfer syrup/honey anywhere. But it would be nice to get clarification from an experienced beekeeper in this regard.

Supers that the bees have started to fill (including capped and uncapped honey) but haven't reach a point where they can be extracted (normally due to the end of a flow / season).

I heard that an uncapped honey in a hive will get ripen and ready for extraction anyway, if left there for some time. While if it`s taken off, it may get moisture in and get fermented or get mould in it.

 

[enrico]

If you leave the bees with the correct amount of food for the winter 'most' of it will be used by spring. The bees will continue to use food during the initial breeding cycles depleting the stores even more. They will also use any extra that they bring in. This means that if you have fed syrup only a small amount may be transferred to a super that you later extract. If this is then multiplied up to two or three supers when you do extract the amount of syrup will be so minimal that it will not make any difference.
However if you over feed in autumn and are left with vast quantities of food in spring then that transfer may become more.
Hence a) feed the correcta amounts in autumn
b) if you want no sugar in your honey then leave them with enough stores.
It is a risk you take but is fairly calculable with experience!
E

 

[drex]

But enrico he is talking of feeding syrup in August, then harvesting "honey for the rest of the season", so no winter in between the feed and the harvest, when the stores would be consumed, reducing the risk of contamination of the "honey", as you point out.

 

[BeeBeeKa]

This means that if you have fed syrup only a small amount may be transferred to a super that you later extract. If this is then multiplied up to two or three supers when you do extract the amount of syrup will be so minimal that it will not make any difference.

Thank you very much Enrico, It`s clear enough now.

a) feed the correct amounts in autumn
b) if you want no sugar in your honey then leave them with enough stores.
It is a risk you take but is fairly calculable with experience!

Do you mean:”Enough honey stores”?
Would not there be an extra option, like taking off some cupped frame stores( I use thymolated syrup), in order to give them back during June gap or in autumn? If you have too much stores in spring of course…

 

[BeeBeeKa]

But enrico he is talking of feeding syrup in August, then harvesting "honey for the rest of the season", so no winter in between the feed and the harvest, when the stores would be consumed, reducing the risk of contamination of the "honey", as you point out.

I do not restrict any aspects referring to the name of the thread The trick I described I already used this season on 2 of my hives. The Ivy honey I`ve got thereafter has no taint of thymol – that`s for sure as I continue to enjoy its wonderful taste almost every day Othervise I would not get any honey at all this season, as I`ve got my nukes in beginning of july.

 

[enrico]

If Drex is right and you are going to feed between nectar flows then you are likely to get a much higher mix of sugar in your honey. You certainly do not want to take thymol tainted frames out and feed them back in the June gap. You will never know where in the hive they have moved those Thymol tainted stores to. Over feeding bees is too easy. It can lead to early swarming amongst other things, however starvation can be fatal. It is a delicate balance which is why you will see so much advice to heft and get used to how heavy or light a hive feels with different amounts of stores in.

 

[itma]

…
Would not there be an extra option, like taking off some cupped frame stores( I use thymolated syrup), in order to give them back during June gap or in autumn? If you have too much stores in spring of course…

Do you have a "June Gap" on Mars? Putting that as your location is a joke that has long ago worn thin.

People in Spain have to manage their bees differently to those in Scotland - the seasons aren't the same. And to a lesser extent, there are going to be management differences between Lincolnshire and Cumbria.

Location does matter to many responses.

Nevertheless, I'd suggest that non-emergency* mid-season feeding (especially with Thymolated syrup) is an accident waiting to happen.
Bees require patience - and the beekeeper needs to practice walking (under varying conditions) before impatiently trying to run.
Try to do the basics as well as possible.
The most basic element of beekeeping is keeping the things alive (and healthy) and then heading off their efforts to move away - beekeeping implies keeping them rather than losing them! Concentrate (patiently) on those basics before trying for maximising your honey crop. It'll come, in its own good time.


* Just so the nit-pickers can rest easy - I'm considering feeding a shook swarm as being 'emergency feeding' -- because they have no stores.

 

[peteinwilts]

a) feed the correcta amounts in autumn
b) if you want no sugar in your honey then leave them with enough stores.

I do things a 'little' different.

Thanks to the Bristol Channel, my microclimate is mild and allows me to feed thymolated syrup (HM's recipe) later than most. (October)

This means it lessens the risk of swarms as it is after a possible 'Indian Summer', such as this year

The bees backfill the reducing brood with syrup, allowing them to take more, and helps reduce the risk of starvation.

The thymol prevents fermentation of any uncapped stores (although this has never been a problem for me)

The downside is I almost always still have frames filled in the spring. I take at least the outer frames out and put new frames in. As the colony expands, they are forced to move the stores and build new comb.
The frames I have removed go to NUC's later in the year.

So far, this has worked for me. Any bees not wanting to play the game receive a large slab of fondant.
If the weather turns against me, they will have fondant (yet to happen!)

 

[BeeBeeKa]

I recorded every significant manipulation I did with my hives this year. The records tell that I fed 23 and 26 liters of thymolated syrup (2:1) to my №2 & №1 hives. The syrup should take almost whole Langstroth BB. When BB was full( or almost full) I had set the third BB (with foundation) on the second one, and continued harvesting honey until 21.10, when varroa mite drops started to worry me( 10 mites a day for №2, and 3 for №1). Thus I`ve got a comb honey from 4 frames out of 20. http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=446169&postcount=56
I appreciate your sentence enrico that "You will never know where in the hive they have moved those Thymol tainted stores to", but none of those 4 frames has indicated any presence of thymol. Not much honey left, while a great part of it was given to my friends and eaten on my own. No one complained about a “ strange taste” so far I would be glad to check this honey in a laboratory for whether a thymol or an excess of sugar ( almost all honey contains some % of sugar as we know), but not sure whether is there any in Ireland that could do that… for a reasonable price

 

[BeeBeeKa]

Location does matter to many responses.

Try to do the basics as well as possible.

Points taken itma, Thanks

 

[BeeBeeKa]

As the colony expands, they are forced to move the stores and build new comb.

What if we do not force them to move the stores, nadiring BB with the whether empty comb frames or foundation frames( or both)?[FONT=&quot]I mean… If we do not want any syrup from BB to be transferred into honey super, would not it be rational to nadir an extra BB for a brood, and set up a super ( or BB) for honey [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]simultaneously[/FONT]? [/FONT]
I insert a quotation of my understanding of a hive microclimate change in accordance with such a challenge : “It won’t jeopardize microclimate condition within the hive… In fact it even improves it, as increasing volume of the system we reducing speed of draft in it( as ventilation entries remain of the same size(the mesh flour + bees entry)) making the hive warmer( Providing that our “engine”(the bees) is of the same size also, and horizontal dimensions of the hive are not changed subsequently( [FONT=&quot]I mean : the hive does not get wider or longer [/FONT])).”[FONT=&quot]
Oh yes… This thesis could work less efficiently in wooden hives, as insulation does matter. [/FONT]

Any bees not wanting to play the game receive a large slab of fondant.

Did you try to give them preheated syrup(35-40`C)? Could it help a bit?
Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you have a "June Gap" on Mars? Putting that as your location is a joke that has long ago worn thin.

- but the Isuppose Ireland isn't that far off the mark

Did you try to give them preheated syrup(35-40`C)? Could it help a bit?
Thanks

yes, as long as you put it into little thermos flasks for them to help themselves when they need it

 

[BeeBeeKa]

- but the Isuppose Ireland isn't that far off the mark

yes, as long as you put it into little thermos flasks for them to help themselves when they need it

Beware of my circus bee, jenkinsbrynmair. She`ll land on a nose of your dog at my single word