Supercedure.

[Excession]

Saturday's inspection revealed a single queen cell in my double brood colony, the resident queen (still there) is at least 3 years old.
All the text book signs of supercedure, BUT, it's June so no way are they superseding, it must be the early signs of swarming... Right?
I calculated that the cell was at day 4 or 5 by the development of the cell, jelly and tiny larvae.
So I put a pin in the frame and planned to go back in today to catch the rest of the swarm cells and perform the required artificial swarm, and left the single cell just in case it was supercedure.

Go in today, and the girls had joined the bottom of the QC to the top of the frames below... Tore it open and wrecked the now being sealed supercedure cell.

Definitely supercedure as no other cells... I am so gutted. Absolutely gutted.

Very upset because my best queen was trying to supersede and I have wrecked it...

So, any experienced Beeks like to hazard a guess as to what now? Will they try supercedure again? (And I can leave well alone for 4 weeks knowing they won't swarm) OR will they make a load more cells in frustration and possibly swarm now? (Thus needing weekly inspections still)

Thoughts?

 

[Excession]

I could go back in in 3-4 days and see if they are raising one or more.

Good answer!

 

[philipm]

Why wouldn't they supercede in June? My understanding is that they will supercede when ever if the weather is ok. Why are you doing inspections every 4 weeks ?By the time you find they are going to swarm it will be panic time!

 

[Excession]

I don't inspect every four weeks, but if I knew they were superceding again I could leave them for four weeks to avoid further accident.

Supercedure isn't that common... Especially in the middle of swarm season.

 

[Poly Hive]

Supercedure is more common than many realize. If you have a dark unmarked queen in autumn and same in spring how to tell?

PH

 

[Excession]

That's why I always mark them, I like to be sure.

But I understand your point supercedure could be more common, my point was I think it unlikely in the middle of swarm season.

But what do you think PH, will they try again or just go to swarm mode?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Supercedure isn't that common... Especially in the middle of swarm season.

which is why it was probably a swarm cell. Just because there was onely on don't mean a thing - if you want to quote 'classic supersedure cell' why was it on the bottom of the frame not the middle?
So we have a queen cell in the middle of swarming season - which I believe runs from early April (or earlier sometimes) until somewhere toward the end of September (sometimes in the same year!!) but only one - so could be supersedure, but it's at the bottom of the frame - so could be swarming.
Know which one my money would be on I'd keep a close eye on that colony and have a quick peep in a few days (What's the betting you missed a couple of sneaky ones?)

 

[Excession]

Thanks JBM, I was certain it was swarm cell, crawled through top and bottom twice.
Even when I was 100% sure there was only 1, I still doubted it (hence the going back in today to reassess) took a a second pair of eyes with me.
So definitely was supercedure.

Question stands though... After a failed supercedure will they try again or switch to swarm mode?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So definitely was supercedure.

Why was it definitely supersedure?

wait seven days and watch them go say I

 

[Excession]

Because there was only one cell raised, and the day of sealing still only one.
With the queen still present and laying.
That's not what happens in a swarm.

But look, I don't need you to believe me, I know what was going on now.

The question I am asking is, if a supercedure is thwarted due to my mistake, will they try again?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Because there was only one cell raised, and the day of sealing still only one.
With the queen still present and laying.
That's not what happens in a swarm.

But look, I don't need you to believe me, I know what was going on now.

The question I am asking is, if a supercedure is thwarted due to my mistake, will they try again?

Only having one queen cell in there means bugger all, as I said, if you want to stick to the 'rules' a supersedure cell would be found in the middle of the frame and at the very last frame of brood

Your cell was on the bottom of the frames that's not what happens in a supersedure

Often seen queens still in the hive and laying when it's been packed with capped 'swarm cells'

Often seen queens swarm on one QC In fact, quite a few on here can attest to that - easy to check when she's gone as all frames bar the chosen one can be shaken off.

You think not know what's going on (partly due to a bit of erroneous 'advice' thrown in earlier) but to quote that great film Lock stock and two smoking barrels
" assumption is the brother of all fcuk ups"
But to answer your question yes, if they want to supersede they'll try again as longs as there's eggs.
They will also, if the want to swarm, make another QC off any available larva and be away well within the regulation seven days.

If you want to put your money on a throw away comment taken as advice, fair enough. But I, for one would prefer to hedge my bets and check in a few days and be proven wrong than stick to my guns and lose a swarm. If, in a few days time you again find only one QC, my advice would be to nuc the queen for insurance and let them bring that one QC on.

 

[For want of a better word]

Do a shook swarm and put one frame of eggs and brood back in the colony... make a nuc up with the rest.

You may get one colony or even two out of it... then cull one queen and merge... hope for a late nectar flow to get some honey.

Nos da

 

[Eyeman]

Because there was only one cell raised, and the day of sealing still only one.
With the queen still present and laying.
That's not what happens in a swarm.

Supercedure happens when I'm not inspecting. I know it has happened because there is either 2 queens present or my clipped queen has been replaced.
When I'm inspecting I (April to July) I assume the are going to swarm if I find one or multiple QC's.

 

[Excession]

Thanks Eyeman.
That was what I assumed as well, hence the inspection 4 days later to catch them in the act.
But still only one cell.
Anyway, question still remains unanswered.

Would a thwarted supercedure result in a second attempt?

 

[JWF]

The question has been answered already - yes, as long as there's eggs or young larvae.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Anyway, question still remains unanswered.

Would a thwarted supercedure result in a second attempt?

answered in #11 - yes

 

[Excession]

Well done. Right answer.
Checked again 3 days after and a single cell being raised slap bang in the middle of the brood nest.
Supercedure second attempt it is.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Let us know when the swarm

 

[beeno]

If, in a few days time you again find only one QC, my advice would be to nuc the queen for insurance and let them bring that one QC on.

Don't forget to check for all the emergency cells if you do that!

 

[Finman]

.
Buy a new laying Queen. Its price is not much. And you get a good queen.

.