Supercedure Number 1 desirable trait

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Beesnaturally

Field Bee
Joined
Jul 12, 2016
Messages
906
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Location
Kent
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
100
Thumbing through my new copy of Oliver S. Field's Field Notes on Queen Rearing I was pleased to see he places smooth supercedure at the number one slot of his list of desirable traits. I've long been annoyed by hives that swarm and fail to requeen, and hives that let the queen run to a drone layer or simply cack out in the middle of the summer. The hives I prize are those that go on year after year producing large crops all on their own. They may be swarming now and then, but they are doing it well and replacing their queens, and if it isn't by swarming it must be by supercedure.

I have long believed that beekeerpers, are their own worst enemies in this regard, and bee breeders are hardly likely to pay it much attention. The systematic replacement of queens after 2 or 3 years removes any opportunity for the supercedure cream to come to the top, either bought or raised at home. And of course wherever wild/feral bees are valued its another hard blow to them.
 

I like the answer to this question about supersedure @ 1:02.49

Hmm. I'd need to ask: if there are patrilines whose larvae effectively say 'don't feed me': how do we normally get frames of wall to wall brood?
Interesting to hear that supercedure queens are generally of lower quality than swarm cells.

Still, as long as the colonies go on year on year and are top producers I don't really care how they do it, and I'll continue selecting them. If they are swarming they are clearly only doing it once, have made good preparation, and aren't sending out huge swarms. I had a large hive send off a huge swarm early this year, and then fail to get another queen on the road. I didn't catch the swarm, which peeved me at the time, now I can say good riddance to incompetent genes. Long live bees that look after themselves.
Thanks.
 
supersedure
:iagree:
Late 15th century (in the sense ‘postpone, defer’): from Old French superseder, from Latin supersedere ‘be superior to’, from super- ‘above’ + sedere ‘sit’. The current sense dates from the mid 17th century.
USAGE The standard spelling is supersede rather than supercede. The word is derived from the Latin verb supersedere but has been influenced by the presence of other words in English spelled with a c, such as intercede and accede. The c spelling is recorded as early as the 16th century; although still generally regarded as incorrect, it is now entered without comment in some modern dictionaries.
 
Hmm. I'd need to ask: if there are patrilines whose larvae effectively say 'don't feed me': how do we normally get frames of wall to wall brood?

Because the larvae constituting the wall to wall brood aren't the same underrepresented larvae that form the royal family hypothesis. That's the point, they're underrepresented amongst the subfamilies.

Still, as long as the colonies go on year on year and are top producers I don't really care how they do it, and I'll continue selecting them. If they are swarming they are clearly only doing it once, have made good preparation, and aren't sending out huge swarms.
What kind of size of prime swarm do you see from your bees?
 
There was me thinking the number 1 trait to search for in deepest darkest Kent was Varroa tolerance.
 
That's built in, background, assumed, taken for granted etc. When you don't interfere with your bees' health defence mechanisms, that's just happening automatically.

Hard for you to compute isn't it?
 
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All well and good until she can't mate due to poor weather or gets picked off by a swallow, do you attest that to bad genes and requeen that colony with a queen from a luckier hive?
 
Hmm. I'd need to ask: if there are patrilines whose larvae effectively say 'don't feed me': how do we normally get frames of wall to wall brood?
Interesting to hear that supercedure queens are generally of lower quality than swarm cells.

Still, as long as the colonies go on year on year and are top producers I don't really care how they do it, and I'll continue selecting them. If they are swarming they are clearly only doing it once, have made good preparation, and aren't sending out huge swarms. I had a large hive send off a huge swarm early this year, and then fail to get another queen on the road. I didn't catch the swarm, which peeved me at the time, now I can say good riddance to incompetent genes. Long live bees that look after themselves.
Thanks.
I think the confusion is with your positioning BN. We have heard at length approach to let and let die beekeeping to promote inherent varroa resistance, together with the local pool of feral bees. Then you bring up supersedure as a primary trait, but with the cavate that 'as long as the colonies go on year on year and are top producers I don't really care how they do it, and I'll continue selecting them'.

It does sound as if you are just looking for a better line of bee that fulfils all of these requirements equally ??
 
I think the confusion is with your positioning BN. We have heard at length approach to let and let die beekeeping to promote inherent varroa resistance, together with the local pool of feral bees. Then you bring up supersedure as a primary trait, but with the cavate that 'as long as the colonies go on year on year and are top producers I don't really care how they do it, and I'll continue selecting them'.

It does sound as if you are just looking for a better line of bee that fulfils all of these requirements equally ??
I'll try to lay it out for you.

First, I want my bees and local bees to be able to thrive without help. I call that self-sufficiency. So: able to manage local pests and diseases unaided.

That I don't undercut the process by which thet attain and maintain self-sufficiency underlies everything.

Second, I want to earn a living, without compromising that primary goal. Indeed, I want maximise my efficiency as a honey farmer, without compromising the primary goal.

So I undertake to do what I call 'traditional husbandry', which means no more and no less than making each generation from the best of the last generation. As nature does, and as husbandrymen have done every since the gradual discovery of improvement by selective breeding/sowing tens of thousands of years ago.

That entails identifying the best, and that involves having criteria. Self-sufficiency is a given, and it is tested by endurance and productivity. Simple isn't it? I take genes from my strongest and longest-lasting hives. Hives, recall, that have never been helped in any way whatsoever by me in health terms (except by having black comb taken out).

That.... means... to bring us to topic... that they have managed to requeen, and managed too to maintain their qualities as they have done so. (Of course there will be uncertainties about that - the latest queen may not have great qualities, which is why I spead my bets.)

My hope here was that I would be selecting for the quality of successful supercedure. The weakness is: I don't track queens, and I can't tell most of the time if they have swarmed and successfully requeened or superceded. BUT: I don't really care that much. If they can swarm and still be outstanding that's fine by me. What I'm selecting for is simply self-sufficient strong performers. The details of how they do it don't bother me that much.

A note (which may reveal something) about the reason for posting as I did: I've long thought that the practices of requeening and especially importing queens would be removing from 'the bees' (the local breeding group) the ability to superceed effectively; and that this would tend to undermine local wild/feral bee populations and indeed my 'live and let die' population. So it has long been my policy to try to avoid acting in ways that would reinforce that tendency. I'm not sure its a simple thing to do.... but I think my process (which I have not detailed in full) does indeed satisfy that goal.

Rolande, I suspect that also responds to most of your questions; but tell me if not.
 
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