Supercedure cells?

[steve_e]

Could someone help me identify these please? There are two of them - they seem in a slightly odd place for either supercedure or swarm cells (both on the side of the top bar of a frame) and they're quite small, but occupied.

cell1.jpg



cell2.jpg

 

[SteveJ]

These to me look like swarm cells.

I'd normally expect to see swarm cells on the bottom bar, I've had a few swarm cells this year on the top bar though. You would normally see supercedure cells on the comb where they have developed an existing egg in an emergency.

Judging by the amount of rain we have had recently they probably built them up high to avoid flooding.

SteveJ

 

[Rich0909]

The thing that might indicate supercedure is the irregularity of the brood pattern in the small area we can see which could suggest the queen is not functioning correctly - is it like that elsewhere?

Rich

 

[steve_e]

Thanks Steve. I've never seen swarm cells up high which is why I thought they might be supercedure.

That's very frustrating. The Q in residence seems very vigorous and is less than a year old. It's a very busy quite full colony but there are a couple of frames free in the BB and a super that is filling up rapidly although there is still space there.

 

[steve_e]

Rich, I'm not really experienced enough to know whether the brood pattern is very irregular throughout, although there are areas where there are unoccupied cells. However she's laying quite a lot - there are a good seven frames of brood.

 

[SteveJ]

Irregularity might be down to the weather. She might have stopped laying for a while. I've had one that where a bit irregular last week when I checked. This week every spare cell has an egg in it. Good weather must be here. Hurrah

 

[Silly Bee]

I'd say it was a swarm cell.

 

[RoofTops]

The irregularity could be due to chalk brood and swarm cells can appear anywhere - top, bottom or middle of a comb.

A classic supercedure cell is one (sometimes 2) large queen cell(s) in the middle of a frame. If there are more than 2 and they are all over the place assume they are swarm cells.

 

[oliver90owner]

The thing tha caught my attention was the decided lack of a honey arch. Not on two brood boxes, by any chance?

 

[steve_e]

No, not on two brood boxes, and I see what you mean.

I did have problems with chalk brood last year but changed comb and Queen as a result. Haven't noticed any problem with chalk brood since but I'll pay attention to that next time I open up.

I'll take some photos of whole frames to see if the laying pattern is an issue or not. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Midland Beek]

I would be inclined to think 'swarm cells'. They are where they are because I would guess it it mostly newish comb that has few queen cell cups. You know the type of comb that fully extends to the bottom bar.

 

[steve_e]

Ok thanks for that. So on the assumption that they are occupied queen cells, this is what I'm thinking of doing - do feel free to let me know if you think I'm not doing the right thing as I've never done this before...

I have a brand new polystyrene nucleus box I bought the other day. I'll remove one frame with the queen and quite a few bees on it, fill the built in feeder and plug the entrance until evening, moving it a little way away from the main hive.

I'll remove one of the queen cells and leave the other, checking in about three weeks to see if the queen has mated and is laying.

The main thing I'm not sure about is re-uniting the nuc bees. Won't they have re-orientated to the new position and keep flying back there if I re-introduce them to the old hive? I don't really want another colony so I'm not sure what to do with the eggs, frames and bees from the nuc.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why don't you just AS and unite when your new queen is laying?

 

[steve_e]

Um - I thought that was a type of AS. What method would you suggest EricA?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Old queen,new box, old site is the classic AS. Not what you have done

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=230237&postcount=42

You have removed the queen on her frame into another box, you are leaving the remaining frames of brood(including eggs) on the original site.
You have rendered them queen-less and they WILL make emergency cells. They will also have LOTS of bees as all the foragers go home. SO they will swarm with the first queen that emerges nearly two weeks before you look in. AND they might well cast with the others till you have nearly an empty box.

Also .... re-uniting is no problem with an AS as both colonies are next to each other, I turn the parent colony 90˚ initially but turn it back the day before I move it to the other side of the AS. There it sits till I decide which queen to keep, then put one box on top of the other.

 

[steve_e]

Well, I haven't done anything yet - I was just asking if that's what I SHOULD do!

Thanks for the link and suggestion.

 

[Erichalfbee]

oooops
sorry thought I was looking at a fait accomplit
apologies
I should read the post properly.......

 

[Black Comb]

To me you are carrying out the nucleus method of swarm control.
It's an alternative to A/S.

Keep the old queen in the nuc as a spare/insurance for a while.

There is a thread on here about it.
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11399&highlight=nucleus+method+of+swarm+control

 

[steve_e]

No problem - appreciate the advice ericA!

PeterS - I think you're right. I got the procedure from a document from the local BKA. I think the procedure recommended by ericA is probably more appropriate in my situation though, so I'm going to customize a crownboard and have a go at that.

 

[drstitson]

supercedure cells are built from worker cells within the pre-existing brood area.

swarm cells are built as cups into which eggs are laid.

these are swarm cells.