Standard Nationals or 14×12

[BILL.HEARD]

And for me the better option.

I run with commercial but have a number of stocks on double nationals or three sometimes.

 

[REDWOOD]

what's the reasoning behind 14x12 being an ungainly curse, what are the drawbacks?

And what is the 'gainly' solution - commercial?

None, I have no problem with frame size, less prone to swarming, stores more for winter, local and foreign bees have no problem with them

 

[Jed D]

We use std nationals , if the queen wants more space to lay , we pop another brood box on top. Swarm cells are usual on the bottom of the top brood box , so easy to find..
Come september we can then reduce back down to 1 brood box and in most cases a super underneath..

Works for us..

 

[Norfolk]

None, I have no problem with frame size, less prone to swarming, stores more for winter, local and foreign bees have no problem with them

 

[mbc]

None, I have no problem with frame size, less prone to swarming, stores more for winter, local and foreign bees have no problem with them

Horses for courses, and calling them an ungainly curse is probably a tad harsh, after all the differences are slight and I'm sure beekeeping can still be enjoyable while using them, but they're not my idea of ergonomic design genius.

 

[beeno]

Brother Adam x 2. Thanks Hivemaker.

 

[REDWOOD]

Horses for courses, and calling them an ungainly curse is probably a tad harsh, after all the differences are slight and I'm sure beekeeping can still be enjoyable while using them, but they're not my idea of ergonomic design genius.

Variety is the spice of life.

 

[Walrus]

I have been using 14x12s for 3 years and I can see where MBC is coming from. Good for packing with stores for over wintering. Bad for being unwieldy to handle and awkward to make. I have found nationals & langstroths much nicer to handle/make. Bees don't seem to care either way.

It is easy to convert a few nationals to 14x12 with an eke so you can try it out on a couple of hives to see how you get on.

 

[drstitson]

"Might it not mean a bit less honey if the brood expands into what you would call a super ?"

no - as per above you add more supers AND a bigger colony should forage more.

(just think about finman's multi brood stacks).

 

[ugcheleuce]

This is more directed to those who have a substantial amount of national hives.

In other words, no-one who has responded so far

I've been happy with the standard box up to now, but that's down to the fact that I split and increase.

It sounds to me as if the current medium National frame is the right size for you, if your beekeeping method involves splitting and increasing. If you move over to 14x12s then your beekeeping method will change, won't it?

Some repliers here say that you can "easily" increase the height with an eke, or "easily" trim the height of a deep, but if your Nationals use bottom bee-space, then ekeing or trimming is not going to be "easily", if I understand correctly.

Here's a crazy thought: how about sticking to mediums but increasing the size of your hives horizontally?

I mean this: for the hives that you don't intend to move around all the time, create an 18-frame brood box of 690 mm wide (that's 460 mm + (1/2 x 460 mm)), that use standard "brood" (medium) frames. Then create some 5-frame boxes of 230 mm wide (that's 1/2 x 460 mm) that also use medium frames. You would then be able to standard 11-frame 460 mm Nationals plus your 5-frame boxes side by side, that will fit perfectly on top of the 690 mm box (but gives only 16 frames in total). You could even put an 11-framer and a 5-framer side-by-side as the brood box, and simply cut two holes in the side of the hive (the same size as a cork, so that you can close it), so that the brood nest will spread across both boxes.

That say, you keep all the advantages of splitting and increasing, but get the added advantage of a bigger, single brood box.

Okay, it's a silly idea... forget I mentioned it.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The 14x12 is big and almost as deep as it is wide and IMO this makes for a very awkward, heavy and cumbersome frame to inspect. I wouldnt have thought that many commercial beekeepers have opted for this format as inspecting a large number would be very fatiguing.

I can't think of any commercial operations using the national 14x12, maybe some though, generally more popular among the hobbyists, the standard national deep all same size has many more advantages, and much faster to work.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I can't think of any commercial operations using the national 14x12, maybe some though, generally more popular among the hobbyists, the standard national deep all same size has many more advantages, and much faster to work.

Having opted for 14 x 12 but with regular handling of association standard national brood I really don't consider handling the larger frame any problem whatsoever. More to the point neither do the Bees

 

[mbc]

The whole idea of any hive only having a one box brood nest is very constrictive. I was introduced to the national hive by a beekeeper who considered a single national box as a nuc and a fully developed nest as at least two boxes.
RAB's earlier comment about 3 nationals being totally unnecessary as a brood nest misses the point too IMO, I quite like expanding a colony on the rape into three national brood boxes before an excluder and supers if necessary, and at the end of the flow harvesting full honey frames and brood from the top two boxes and leaving the queen in the bottom box with the fliers, nice and light and easy to move and in a condition similar to an AS'd hive(unlikely to swarm that season), as the bottom box in a three box nest tends to get mostly abandoned in favour of the top two for brood rearing after a brood cycle or two with my bees, leaving the bottom box with some older sealed brood and many combs of pollen, ideal for the queen to re populate and build the colony ready for the next flow. I suppose flexibility is what you make of it with any hive format, just the 14x12 being less flexible to my mind.

 

[Chrisfnvs]

I can't think of any commercial operations using the national 14x12, maybe some though, generally more popular among the hobbyists, the standard national deep all same size has many more advantages, and much faster to work.

I agree HM i am going back to all standard national deeps for everything this season much easier to work no problem to extract and give you a good supply of clean fresh comb also opens up your options when doing inspections or swarm control etc, i might keep the 14x12`s for a couple of local sites which i may use for my new Queen breeding/rearing program as cell starter colonies if all goes well

 

[Swarm]

The whole idea of any hive only having a one box brood nest is very constrictive. I was introduced to the national hive by a beekeeper who considered a single national box as a nuc and a fully developed nest as at least two boxes.
RAB's earlier comment about 3 nationals being totally unnecessary as a brood nest misses the point too IMO, I quite like expanding a colony on the rape into three national brood boxes before an excluder and supers if necessary, and at the end of the flow harvesting full honey frames and brood from the top two boxes and leaving the queen in the bottom box with the fliers, nice and light and easy to move and in a condition similar to an AS'd hive(unlikely to swarm that season), as the bottom box in a three box nest tends to get mostly abandoned in favour of the top two for brood rearing after a brood cycle or two with my bees, leaving the bottom box with some older sealed brood and many combs of pollen, ideal for the queen to re populate and build the colony ready for the next flow. I suppose flexibility is what you make of it with any hive format, just the 14x12 being less flexible to my mind.

So many options with multiple boxes.

 

[itma]

As usual it is "Horses for courses" ...


I think 14x12 is an excellent, straightforward (if heavy) format for the hobbyist who is not intending to be moving his hives around different apiaries through the season.


However, for the aspiring commercial beek (the OP is looking to expand beyond 20 hives) there are going to be advantages in using multi-brood methods --- quick "tipping" swarm cell inspections just for one.
I'd caution against the inflexibility of brood and a half.
Which leads us to double brood.
I've recently been thinking about the sense in National double-brood using 10-frame (poly) brood boxes for double brood. More than 10% lighter than 11-frame wooden boxes and not too big as a double. And with the same external dimensions as wooden supers, so a painless migration to the benefits of poly!
Of course, if one was going seriously, ruthlessly, into honey farming (as opposed to bee farming), then one would likely be thinking double brood imported cheap poly langstroth ...

But I'm quite happy with my own 14x12s for now ...

 

[Ely]

That's actually not a bad idea.
Might it not mean a bit less honey if the brood expands into what you would call a super ?

No because you add supers when needed just the same. Might mean taller hives

 

[Ely]

In my opinion the 14 x 12 frame is an ungainly curse.

I agree. I have a 14 x 12 and commercial hives. Out of the two the 16 x 10 commercial frame is a lot better. Much more stable as it is more rectangle. If I were choosing out of the two and was not interested in another system I would say definitely commercial. The only problem being if you wanted to go poly, there is no poly commercials. It's a shame an inferior hive type became the more popular. I guess that is due to easy conversion from national deeps.

 

[Ely]

This thread has already gone crazy.

Double 14 x 12. 140k potential brood cells? Just not necessary, even with a beeno 5000 eggs per day queen and not having any rest after a couple of weeks. Just totally bizarre!

Exactly the same for triple broods, unless the beek is using shallows as broods. Some common sense needs to be applied, mand also some thought that new beeks will be introduced to bizarre ideas before they even get going.

As for OSBs and no queen excluder. What about any box and no Q/E? Think a bit more laterally and be less blinkered is my suggestion.

End of thread for me. It could get worse, like so many threads that degenerate into farce.

RAB

One size box/any size box. Struggling to see the difference. The information wasn't specific at all so I don't know how it can be blinkered. It's up to the keeper to decide what box they use or if they choose this method at all, with or without queen excluder. I suggested without excluder because I got the blatantly obvious gist that the OP was worried about limiting the brood nest. I realise you run 14 x 12s with no excluder, that is your choice. Doesn't mean you can take offense at other harmless suggestions. Nobody is attacking your method in any of these posts. Your system is the same as I used last year. I'm struggling to see why you are picking holes in an otherwise helpful thread.

 

[Ely]

Well you only have to guess at his on-line mentor/guru to know where that comes from!

Who is that then. And please advise me to why I shouldn't have suggested this method