Standard Nation Hive frame Type

[bee56]

I have just bought a Standard National hive which I need to buy frames and foundation for.

DN4 (Hoffman) for the Standard Brood Box
SN4 for the Supers
Are these the correct ones to buy?, could anyone please help me.

Thanks bee56

 

[MuswellMetro]

I have just bought a Standard National hive which I need to buy frames and foundation for.

DN4 (Hoffman) for the Standard Brood Box
SN4 for the Supers
Are these the correct ones to buy?, could anyone please help me.

Thanks bee56

We ADVISE OUR BEGINNERS that you get less brace comb with DN5 (hoffman) frames, the five means they have a wider top bar but same sides as Dn4s

we likewise advise our beginners to start with SN4 or SN5 or Manley frames (SN7..i think)

biut if your super boxes have casterlations it is cheaper to use SN1 or repalce the castlerlations with runners and ue SN4/5/7

 

[broandy]

yes bee they are the correct ones hoffman self spacing frames

 

[enrico]

You will find as a beginner you will stand less chance of killing bees ( ie the queen) with plastic spacers rather than Hoffman spacers. If you insist. On Hofmann no problem but when you replace a frame into the hive try to run the frame you are replacing down the spacer of the frame before it. That way you don't crush bees when pushing the frames together! I am not saying you shouldn't use them just that you need to be a bit careful.
E

 

[bee56]

Thanks for the replies, thats a good point enrico

 

[itma]

What I have seen in Nationals is mainly DN4s in the brood box (on rails) and cheap SN1s on castellations in the crop supers.
/ Just because its common, doesn't mean I think its an optimal solution!


You can use SN4s (hoffmans) or SN5s (hoffmans with wide top bar) either in crop supers (on rails or castellations) or the half of brood and a half (on rails). Don't use anything else in a half brood box!
And, (its a personal opinion) I think beginners should have at least one box filled with SN4/5s ... AND stick them one at a time into the brood box (not splitting the brood) to get some of them at least partly drawn before putting them into a super. This is so that the bees aren't faced with a new super full of space, new frames and undrawn foundation -- such a space isn't attractive for the bees. A few drawn frames makes it much better. And then you are off and running!

I'd agree that using the wide topbar (the 5s) is better - particularly for the brood box (Deep National type 5), as with a proper single beespace between bars, there is less comb between frames.

Manley frames are specifically for crop supers, 10 to a box, on rails. With the wide topbar matched with an equally wide bottom bar, they should be the easiest to uncap neatly. They are also more expensive.


Unless you have a burning need for frames NOW, hang on for the sales.
Buy packs of 50 seconds for less than the cost of 20 firsts.
Recognise that they are just different combinations of a few basic components, and buying a few different sidebars allows you to make up different frames.


I'd take issue with Enrico's suggestions. Sliding the frame down the hoffman spacers is guaranteed to roll bees and worse. Plastic spacers are wretched things and set the frame-to-frame space wrongly for brood frames. You can use any spacing you fancy in the crop supers, but it does matter in the brood box. Use hoffmans in the brood!


PS - 4 beekeepers, at least 6 opinions... which is why there are so many options!

 

[bee56]

Thanks itma that makes sense I was just reading Ted Hoopers Guide trying to work out which frames did what

 

[enrico]

Quote ...I'd take issue with Enrico's suggestions. Sliding the frame down the hoffman spacers is guaranteed to roll bees and worse. Plastic spacers are wretched things and set the frame-to-frame space wrongly for brood frames. You can use any spacing you fancy in the crop supers, but it does matter in the brood box. Use hoffmans in the brood! ...unquote

Everyone to their own, done carefully there is no need to roll the bees, but I accept your view.
E

 

[itma]

Thanks itma that makes sense I was just reading Ted Hoopers Guide trying to work out which frames did what

The relevant pages in Th0rne's catalogue may also be helpful rather than confusing!

 

[REDWOOD]

When pushing SN4/5 frames together blow the bees away from the side bars to avoid squishing them

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

Unless you have a burning need for frames NOW, hang on for the sales.
Buy packs of 50 seconds for less than the cost of 20 firsts.

When are the main ONLINE sales?
Too far to so up to Harper Adams in April.

 

[itma]

When are the main ONLINE sales?
Too far to so up to Harper Adams in April.

Other side of Birmingham is too far for me too!

I might share a car with someone to Th0rnes Windsor Sale on Sat Sept 8th.
Last year T's had two online sales - one before, one after Christmas. Haven't heard of any dates for this year yet.

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

I am also put off by some of the stories I have heard see here BKKA members forum
with reports of a huge ruck and some buyers walking off with the makings of 60-80 hives and other people getting nothing. Some Associations go up as a team but no doubt a huge amount of the bulk buys will end up on fleabay!

No doubt it pays to shop around Caddon Hives and Solway Hives both come in 30p cheaper than the large manufacturers on their DN4s list price.

 

[Teemore]

Take advantage of the online sales to buy frames: if you get together with a few other beekeepers it is very easy to place an order with a value in excess of £100 and that will attract free delivery from Th*rnes. (There may be similar arrangements in place with other suppliers but you would need to check the order value that attracts free shipping.)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

CWJ do seconds in 10's or 50's they're big T's so they're slightly (and i mean slightly) more expensive as they have Wynne's premium on top I think it's orders over £100.00 is free. Their wax foundation prices are good as well (big T's standard foundation) at the Welsh convention people head straight for CWJ rather than T***es for foundation

 

[itma]

CWJ do seconds in 10's or 50's they're big T's so they're slightly (and i mean slightly) more expensive as they have Wynne's premium on top I think it's orders over £100.00 is free. Their wax foundation prices are good as well (big T's standard foundation) at the Welsh convention people head straight for CWJ rather than T***es for foundation

Just a 'heads up' that CWJ generally quote prices before adding VAT, whereas T's (selling more to us hobbyists) include it in the price displayed.

They seem to buy up large quantities of T's sale stock and then resell it through the year, at a slightly higher marked price, but then plus 20% VAT. Can still be a good deal though!

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

Yes I discovered this at the weekend, CWJ have a 2nd's section which even with +VAT and postage works out a good deal when combined with a foundation order.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just a 'heads up' that CWJ generally quote prices before adding VAT, whereas T's (selling more to us hobbyists) include it in the price displayed.

They seem to buy up large quantities of T's sale stock and then resell it through the year, at a slightly higher marked price, but then plus 20% VAT. Can still be a good deal though!

for a mid season panic buy where you can't wait for the sales it's a good and economical option.

 

[bee56]

Thanks for all your advice
I have now bought SN4 and DN4 frames and a dummy frame for the brood box, I,ve heard that it's better to use two brood boxes as it gives the bees extra room and theres less chance of them swarming is that correct?

 

[mbc]

CWJ do seconds in 10's or 50's they're big T's so they're slightly (and i mean slightly) more expensive as they have Wynne's premium on top I think it's orders over £100.00 is free. Their wax foundation prices are good as well (big T's standard foundation) at the Welsh convention people head straight for CWJ rather than T***es for foundation

I'll be with the early crowd out the back for foundation where maisymoores do wax exchange from the back of one of their vans.