Splitting your first hive - how soon and how?

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pargyle 

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No lol. he is a dangerous man.
He preys on the gullible and inexperienced.
I don't think that's fair - he's been keeping bees for may years - he's got some interesting ideas - a lot based on his own observations. I don't think he preys on anyone - I don't even think he forces his ideas on anyone. If you care to read his book there's some good practical beekeeping in it. There's always room for some eccentricity in beekeeping and anything else for that matter. Without original thinkers ... even if their ideas don't always develop or work as well for everyone else ... the world goes nowhere. I've met Roger on a few occasions and talked at length with him ... he's mellowed a bit, he's not as dogmatic as he used to be. You don't have to agree with him but it's not right to malign him.
 
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Nige.Coll 

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I don't think that's fair - he's been keeping bees for may years - he's got some interesting ideas - a lot based on his own observations. I don't think he preys on anyone - I don't even think he forces his ideas on anyone. If you care to read his book there's some good practical beekeeping in it. There's always room for some eccentricity in beekeeping and anything else for that matter. Without original thinkers ... even if their ideas don't always develop or work as well for everyone else ... the world goes nowhere. I've met Roger on a few occasions and talked at length with him ... he's mellowed a bit, he's not as dogmatic as he used to be. You don't have to agree with him but it's not right to malign him.
Why ?
His book is crap.
His opinions based on his own ideas and all he does is ridicule others. Original thinker he isn't he hasn't the intelligence.
Slags the BBKA off but spent 9 years on the board and achieved nowt. Slags bee inspectors off but has never been one. Slags everyone off who wrote a book other than his and has ruined the dave cushman site with his drivel. Dave would turn in his grave.
Anyone that recommends grafting from a 2 day old larvae is a muppet in my book. I don't know I'm just asking.
He has twisted BIBBA into some politically motivated lobby group from a stand point of he has never kept AMM. I doubt he would know true AMM if they stung him.
You can keep bees all your life but if your eyes are closed you learn nothing.
If you like the guy that's up to you.
He should not be in that position in BIBBA. Beowulf would not want him there.
 

pargyle 

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Why ?
His book is crap.
His opinions based on his own ideas and all he does is ridicule others. Original thinker he isn't he hasn't the intelligence.
Slags the BBKA off but spent 9 years on the board and achieved nowt. Slags bee inspectors off but has never been one. Slags everyone off who wrote a book other than his and has ruined the dave cushman site with his drivel. Dave would turn in his grave.
Anyone that recommends grafting from a 2 day old larvae is a muppet in my book. I don't know I'm just asking.
He has twisted BIBBA into some politically motivated lobby group from a stand point of he has never kept AMM. I doubt he would know true AMM if they stung him.
You can keep bees all your life but if your eyes are closed you learn nothing.
If you like the guy that's up to you.
He should not be in that position in BIBBA. Beowulf would not want him there.
I think it's bedtime .... I think what you are saying above is opinionated and not factual .... time to give it a rest. Be specific in crticisms of things you have found in his ways or in his writing and comment on them by all means ... I'm no acolyte of RP but what you are spewing forth is not criticism .. it's verbal diaorrhea ..

And for what it's worth Dave Cushman bequeathed the website to his care and on the basis that he would take it forward.. whether you like what he's done with it is irrelevant - it was what Dave Cushman wanted and I very much doubt that he would take issue with it. If you don't like the site you don't have to go there - most of what DC left behind is still present .. it's been added to and in RP's own way but he always identifies what is his and what was DC's.
 
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Nige.Coll 

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I think it's bedtime .... I think what you are saying above is opinionated and not factual .... time to give it a rest. Be specific in crticisms of things you have found in his ways or in his writing and comment on them by all means ... I'm no acolyte of RP but what you are spewing forth is not criticism .. it's verbal diaorrhea ..
Advocating the use of 48 hour old larvae in grafting. These make poor quality queens. He did this on a webinar a week ago.
He was indeed on the board of the BBKA for 8-9 years, He was part of the management that sold out to pesticide giants and did nothing to change the BBKA. He was refused access to the education system and threw a mardy.
He advises using nucs that produce queens with crumpled wings, it isn't dwv it is chilled queen cells. They are too small.
He does not now and has never kept AMM he says his area is too diverse to do so. This is why BIBBA is now about locally adapted bees.
If you read beowulf's book the village beekeepers was never set up to be a confrontational group, dogmatism begets counter dogmatism and it is self perpetuating, like hive wars in the press. Now BIBBA is dictating to the BBKA and trying to dictate to government.
He does ridicule the BBKA at every talk. I have seen many but he made his fame there.
He ridiculed the bee inspectors at the first event at the eden project, I was there. he got a short exchange from SBI's in the audience.
His favorite saying when he asks a question that he has nothing more than an opinion on is " i'm only asking "
He suggests people challenge what is in books or what they are told, if you challenge what he says he gets mardy and upset and walks away.
Without 10 people behind him the man is nothing. He has nothing to say without backup. All leylines and divining.

Verbal diarrhea it isn't.
I know the guy and have seen him in action for a long time.
 
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Erichalfbee 

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I know a night has passed and perhaps this has passed it's sell by date. Can we leave it there please Nigel?
 

Beebe 

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richard_skinner 

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So after successfully (so far) overwintering our fist hive we are looking for increase this year. We'll have a nuc set up as a swarm trap (which is how we got our colony last year), but want to split off our existing colony too.
The book is have talk about either waiting until it is ready to swarm, or splitting and adding in a queen from your queen breeding setup, which with a single hive we oddly don't have.

So two fold question:

1. Should we wait for swarm signs and then split? Or can we do it earlier, once our hive is building up and we're seeing enough drones that a mating is reasonable? I realise this is more than a month away but want to be planning ahead (two more hives and an extra nuc on order).

2. Any preferred method for a first timer? Walk away split - a couple of frames of capped brood plus eggs/newly hatched larvae for queen making and a bit of nectar/pollen, or something a bit more involved?

Thanks.
I've just watched a few videos on the BIBBA site by Roger Paterson that covers these methods. I plan on doing one to expand my own. You don't need a queen rearing setup with his technics. Worth checking out. There will also be many opinions but these are worth checking out as a method
 

Boston Bees 

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Thank-you for the link; what an excellent read and straightening me out on many misconceptions spread by others. Facts in profusion. (y)

EDIT: Having said all that....the whole document is equally complex as the document created by he whose name I shall not utter again (RP). :giggle:
Yes, I'll be honest, I find Wally Shaw's stuff useful but compromised by the fact that he keeps using brood-and-a-half as his starting point, which makes the diagrams a mess. His recommended methods aren't the simplest. I would use his pamphlets as excellent background information, but use other methods for the actual splits.
 

Erichalfbee 

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Thank-you for the link; what an excellent read and straightening me out on many misconceptions spread by others. Facts in profusion. (y)

EDIT: Having said all that....the whole document is equally complex as the document created by he whose name I shall not utter again (RP). :giggle:
There are some other good publications on the site. The one I recommend to beginners is Queen Cells: What do I do?
 

StephenT 

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I really like the Wally Shaw booklets. In my first year I found it hard to get a lot of it clear in my head but into my second it started to become a lot clearer. I’m still running my first hive on brood and a half and following his recommended manipulations, whilst recognising of course that brood and a half is akin to being in league with Lucifer 😉
 

pargyle 

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I’m still running my first hive on brood and a half and following his recommended manipulations, whilst recognising of course that brood and a half is akin to being in league with Lucifer 😉
Perhaps so ... and it is certainly not my choice - but beekeeping is a lot about choice and if it works for you that's fine. Better the devil you know sometimes ....
 

BugsInABox 

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So after successfully (so far) overwintering our fist hive we are looking for increase this year. We'll have a nuc set up as a swarm trap (which is how we got our colony last year), but want to split off our existing colony too.
The book is have talk about either waiting until it is ready to swarm, or splitting and adding in a queen from your queen breeding setup, which with a single hive we oddly don't have.

So two fold question:

1. Should we wait for swarm signs and then split? Or can we do it earlier, once our hive is building up and we're seeing enough drones that a mating is reasonable? I realise this is more than a month away but want to be planning ahead (two more hives and an extra nuc on order).

2. Any preferred method for a first timer? Walk away split - a couple of frames of capped brood plus eggs/newly hatched larvae for queen making and a bit of nectar/pollen, or something a bit more involved?

Thanks.

Hi there you're in the same position I was in this time last year. Only tip to give you is don't do it too early. I did - against the.counsel of some on here - and it was too early. Had to transfer more brood accross in the end when no sign of laying despite wating. They did eventually raise a queen which layed but after the prolonged brood break they never really recovered. Meanwhile the orginal hive continued to grow and swarmed anyway.

I think is was just too keen to play with them.

The actual process of doing the split feels brutal 1st time.

Good luck
Neil
 

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