Splitting your first hive - how soon and how?

[pnkemp]

So after successfully (so far) overwintering our fist hive we are looking for increase this year. We'll have a nuc set up as a swarm trap (which is how we got our colony last year), but want to split off our existing colony too.
The book is have talk about either waiting until it is ready to swarm, or splitting and adding in a queen from your queen breeding setup, which with a single hive we oddly don't have.

So two fold question:

1. Should we wait for swarm signs and then split? Or can we do it earlier, once our hive is building up and we're seeing enough drones that a mating is reasonable? I realise this is more than a month away but want to be planning ahead (two more hives and an extra nuc on order).

2. Any preferred method for a first timer? Walk away split - a couple of frames of capped brood plus eggs/newly hatched larvae for queen making and a bit of nectar/pollen, or something a bit more involved?

Thanks.

 

[domino]

My prefered method of splitting is to find with the queen, put her in a nuc, come back in a few days and bash all but the juicist cell down. This why I'm pretty sure I won't lose my bees.

I've never quite got the timing of when to split down, I'm sure someone will give you better advice, I tend to look for consistently warm weather, drones and nectar in the frames. My assumption is there are plenty of bees to mate with and food to be had - which would seem like a good time to swarm.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You could look here. Might give you an idea
https://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Simple-methods-of-making-Increase-Final-reduced1.pdf

 

[Boston Bees]

Assuming you find the queen when you want to do it, this is a good description of a common approach that you can do with your nuc box. You can do it when you have found queen cells (which is what he describes) or you can do it pro-actively (in a warm spell, when drones are present, etc), ensuring that you leave the queenless colony frames with eggs in to make a new queen.

The nucleus method - The Apiarist

 

[user 20297]

What do people thing of Roger Patterson's Method? I haven't used it, but it sounds straightforward, frugal, capable of multiplying bee stocks by large amounts, very quickly and doesn't require a second apiary. I don't think the queen needs handling, but does need identifying.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rogerpattersoninc.html

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sounds like a lot of fiddle and faffery to me.
But then again, it has got Patterson's name on it, so what do we expect?

 

[user 20297]

Sounds like a lot of fiddle and faffery to me.
But then again, it has got Patterson's name on it, so what do we expect?

I knew I was tempting fate...I did consider asking for a critique of the method rather than the man.
Faff is the last think it sounds like to me; but if anyone has found that it works as well as he says?..................

 

[user 20297]

You can do it when you have found queen cells (which is what he describes) or you can do it pro-actively

Have experienced beekeepers generally found that better queens are more likely to be the ones which emerge from "swarm" cells, as is observed my Tim Rowe. Or is there no discernible difference in the performance of a queen from an "emergency queen-cell?

How risky is it to place two or more sealed queen-cells into a nuc?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Have experienced beekeepers generally found that better queens are more likely to be the ones which emerge from "swarm" cells, as is observed my Tim Rowe. Or is there no discernible difference in the performance of a queen from an "emergency queen-cell?

How risky is it to place two or more sealed queen-cells into a nuc?

No difference, 'walkaway' nucs are a common way of making increase, the bees aren't stupid, if you leave them to it they will select the best genetics of the available larvae and ensure it is developed properly.
Wally Shaw is a firm believer in making up walkaway nucs and leaving them to it, no need to cull any queen cells, just leave it to the bees, they know best which cell will make the best queen.

 

[user 20297]

....no need to cull any queen cells, just leave it to the bees, they know best which cell will make the best queen.

I like that.

 

[Boston Bees]

Wally Shaw is a firm believer in making up walkaway nucs and leaving them to it, no need to cull any queen cells, just leave it to the bees, they know best which cell will make the best queen.

Do you do this (leave multiple cells) and if so do you find they don't swarm?

 

[domino]

What do people thing of Roger Patterson's Method? I haven't used it, but it sounds straightforward, frugal, capable of multiplying bee stocks by large amounts, very quickly and doesn't require a second apiary. I don't think the queen needs handling, but does need identifying.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rog...ushman.net/bee/rogerpattersoninc.html[/QUOTE]
[/URL]

Could you bullet point it, I've spent the day editing a very long document and I'm going word blind.

 

[domino]

How risky is it to place two or more sealed queen-cells into a nuc?

Depends if you care if some of the bee swarm with one of the queens or fancy letting them fight it out.

I've never noticed much difference between bashing all but one down or leaving two in place, as long as a pick them when they are still open.

 

[Ian123]

Commercial suppliers will have queens available in April it really depends how you want to do it. Done this way you should have two productive colonies for the main flow and should!!! Reduce any swarming impulse in the original colony.

 

[hemo]

For nucs I leave two QC's as the colony strength often isn't great enough for any swarming to be of concern to me or worthy on the bees part. Like mating nuc's I tend not to leave them in very hot sun.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you do this (leave multiple cells) and if so do you find they don't swarm?

I don't do walkaway nucs very often, I would if I did, however, I usually leave two or even three QCs in one nuc when I make nucs from Demarree's if there are multiple cells there.
People need to realise that we are not talking of a full colony in swarming mode here, It's a nuc (not that strong) with not that much brood which has no queen and desparate to make one. there is a big difference.

 

[masterBK]

I would combine swarm prevention with colony production. Run the colony on a double brood until you get at least 12 combs of brood and then carry out a modified demaree putting a split board with rear entrance under the top brood box after three days. This will generate a few decent size queen cells. When cells sealed put mesh over feed hole in split board. Five weeks later new queen should be laying in the top box and can be transferred to another hive stand.

 

[drdrday]

Don't forget the option of just waiting for the bees to do the job for you!
There's a pretty good likelihood they'll let you know they're ready to swarm this season and you'll end up with at least 2 colonies.
I don't know how many colonies you envisage in your future, but if you're just after 2 or 3 you'll be there and working hard to avoid any more increase before you know it.

 

[user 20297]

Could you bullet point it, I've spent the day editing a very long document and I'm going word blind.

If you're serious? I can, but it's already been done at the beginning of the document with a "quick start" description. I am sure to have incorporated errors trying to break it down into chunks.

1. Move the hive of the donor colony to a new location at a short distance behind and to the side of its original position.
2. Place two nuc boxes slightly to the front and to each side of the original position of the hive.
3. In each nuc put a good frame of "largely sealed brood" and a frame of stores from the hive.
4. Fill the vacant spaces in the nucs and original hive with drawn comb or at second best, with foundation.
5. Monitor the nucs as foragers return, and consider exchanging their positions to equalise bee numbers.

As previously observed, the full write-up is massively wordy and has many nuances and variations. This requires a colony at full strength, and in that case, Roger suggests that you may be able to repeat the process later in the season. You could then move the original colony back to its starting location and make up two more nucs which would be placed in front of and to the side of location number two.

I haven't attempted this method, but, all being well, I'm setup to do so this summer. I made the presumption that many people would have tried this.

 

[Boston Bees]

What do people thing of Roger Patterson's Method? I haven't used it, but it sounds straightforward, frugal, capable of multiplying bee stocks by large amounts, very quickly and doesn't require a second apiary. I don't think the queen needs handling, but does need identifying.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rogerpattersoninc.html

The Patterson method, at least as described, requires an external source of queen cells (i.e not from the hive that is being used to populate the multiple nucs). No doubt Roger has QCs on hand in his apiaries, as part of his breeding programme but many people won't.

This is the problem with a lot of the split methods described online. You get to a certain stage and it says "insert a queen cell", and you go "OK, from where?"

But apart from that, sure, it's a perfectly reasonable method. Nothing complicated. Take a frame of brood (without queen), a frame of food, put in nuc, fill with drawn comb, add a queen cell, move the parent colony, walk away for a few weeks. The only "tweak" I guess is the way he creates a semi-circle of nucs, and gets so many nucs out of one hive, but those things aren't particularly radical.