Sorry but more wintering qs: wind, insulation & feeding?

[Alabamaeee]

What about covering up the porter escape holes and just leaving single bee space on one of them.

Would that be enough to ensure a little ventilation?

 

[ksjs]

It's more that my understanding is that cold has no real impact on the bees so why does having the hive in an exposed position matter i.e. wind is not blowing into the hive, wind chill doesn't matter and if anything wind should help reduce damp?

I think this was never really answered, if anybody knows anything 'definitive' on this I'd be interested...

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksjs
It's more that my understanding is that cold has no real impact on the bees so why does having the hive in an exposed position matter i.e. wind is not blowing into the hive, wind chill doesn't matter and if anything wind should help reduce damp?
I think this was never really answered, if anybody knows anything 'definitive' on this I'd be interested...

Cold definitely has an impact - they can't fly, need to work hard to keep body temp up, but thats not to say they can't withstand very cold conditions.

If the hive is exposed needlessly then they have to work harder to keep their temperature up, and will consequently consume more stores.

 

[oliver90owner]

Just ask yourself the questions of where you might prefer your house to be built and the mode of operation of said residence.

From that I mean: built on top of a hill c/f a more sheltered spot, and which side would you have a door, were you to leave it open at all times - wind-ward or lee-ward?

Ever heard of Newton's Law of cooling? That may put things in context.

Maybe this might help you to understand the subtleties of over wintering bees, just the same as over-wintering other livestock on a farm or locating your dog kennel, etc etc.

RAB

 

[Vergilius]

This is my first winter with bees and I've been thinking quite a bit about the effects of temperature, insulation and feeding for them recently. There's a few points I'd like to clear up:

1. We get some strong westerly winds. I have put up a makeshift windbreak (actually a small coal bunker) but am concerned this may be insufficient. That's not the issue though as I can obviously do something more effective.

It's more that my understanding is that cold has no real impact on the bees so why does having the hive in an exposed position matter i.e. wind is not blowing into the hive, wind chill doesn't matter and if anything wind should help reduce damp?

2. People say insulate roof but not hive sides. I think this is because it's thought that side insulation can reduce the hive's ability to breathe and may also increase condensation. I would have thought however that insulation on the outside would actually keep hive structure at a higher temp and therefore decrease likelihood of condensation forming internally?

Also, I am not convinced that the rate of water movement through wood is sufficiently fast to offset potential gains in warmth and environmental stability for the bees through additional insulation. Am I wrong?

3. My hive needs some more stores before going into winter (they had a frame that somehow [robbing?] developed large holes and I have just replaced this with a fresh frame). I have finished treating with apiguard and am now feeding syrup again. I hope this will top things up sufficiently (along possibly with some late forage - pollen coming in today). If it doesn't and I am still concerned can I just leave some candy in there, just in case?

On a practical level, how would I do this if the roof is insulated? Would it be something like: crown board, candy on top then insulation above (supported by legs to stop it resting on the candy) and then roof?

4. When is the latest that anyone would do a hive inspection to assess stores? I assume this is a function of conditions (temp) rather than any particular time of year?

If you've read that lot, thanks for persisting!

This winter you will find out a lot of answers. It is essential however that you learn how to "heft" the hive or set up some scales with which to weigh your hive - this enables you to know the weight of the hive, and therefore (in most cases) how much stores the bees have. You can then assess whether the colony needs a top-up of fondant; as eric says a typical 1st winter mistake is to feed continuously throughout winter, and then find that you have a box full of stores come spring - which could result in early swarming. The hefting process will also give you an indication of whether your site is appropriate for wintering; if your bees have guzzled through a lot of the stores by December you know that the site is not good (I am also trialling a slightly exposed site this winter) so will be checking carefully.

While the weather is still warm(ish), try to feed as heavily as possible to give your bees the best chance of having a full box of stores. If you find that you are going into winter with empty frames, replace them with a dummy board - you do not want your bees wasting more energy than they have to by heating "waste space". Insulate as well.

To be honest, bees don't like wind, cold, or damp - but they can survive them. Starvation and disease certainly kills colonies.

So this winter be alert; heft regularly, and, if you find that your hives are light - top them up with fondant. For you in particular your situation with regards to stores means that you do not need to worry too much about over-feeding. Pay close attention to the weather and assess what actions you need to take...

Ben P

 

[ksjs]

Just ask yourself the questions of where you might prefer your house to be built and the mode of operation of said residence.

From that I mean: built on top of a hill c/f a more sheltered spot, and which side would you have a door, were you to leave it open at all times - wind-ward or lee-ward?

When you put it like that it's very logical. Will keep all in mind...

 

[ksjs]

To be honest, bees don't like wind, cold, or damp - but they can survive them. Starvation and disease certainly kills colonies.

So this winter be alert; heft regularly, and, if you find that your hives are light - top them up with fondant. For you in particular your situation with regards to stores means that you do not need to worry too much about over-feeding. Pay close attention to the weather and assess what actions you need to take...

Ben P

Really good post, much appreciated. I have hefted a couple of times, almost feels like trying to get a bag of cement to move initially or at least that's the best description I can give.

I think it will be touch and go with stores, they had approx 9 fully stored frames at last inspection (a few weeks ago), I've fed some syrup since (they were slow to take this down) and have had some seemingly good forage days (lots of pollen coming in, they were still flying yesterday).

I probably can feed now but am reluctant to do so, I can't think where it would go (having said that I did introduce a fresh frame of foundation a few weeks back due to damage and I'm not really sure where they're up to with it, they were making good progress at last inspection with drawing out so this might give some room?)

Can I take a view with feeding that if they're taking it down they need it? Or am I just building up trouble for spring?

14 x 12 next year to help with the whole stores / space thing I think, and a 2nd hive as the more I learn the more it seems having your eggs in one basket isn't good when it comes to bees....

 

[Vergilius]

Can I take a view with feeding that if they're taking it down they need it? Or am I just building up trouble for spring?

With syrup, yes you can... Fondant fed during the winter is slightly different; instead of storing it, they consume it straight off - so they may just continosly eat the fondant blocks that you provide them, rather than their own stores.

Ben P

PS there are some really good beekeeping books which have all (or most) of the answers...

 

[ksjs]

With syrup, yes you can... Fondant fed during the winter is slightly different; instead of storing it, they consume it straight off - so they may just continosly eat the fondant blocks that you provide them, rather than their own stores.

Ben P

PS there are some really good beekeeping books which have all (or most) of the answers...

Cheers for info. I'm not sure why but I think I'd decided that I'd only feed fondant come January for example if they were light on stores. I hadn't heard about feeding too much now potentially causing swarming in spring but I think this has definitely put me off feeding any more for the moment (especially as I know I can feed fondant later).

Currently doing a course and have read quite a few books, so not totally ignorant, it's just that getting some sort of a spread of opinion feels very useful.

 

[Vergilius]

I hadn't heard about feeding too much now potentially causing swarming in spring but I think this has definitely put me off feeding any more for the moment (especially as I know I can feed fondant later).

It shouldn't have put you off!!! You want to have a full box of stores going into winter (ie now), you just don't want one coming out of it (ie in Spring when the queen starts laying heavily)...


Ben P

 

[oliver90owner]

I hadn't heard about feeding too much now potentially causing swarming in spring

One can remove frames of stores in spring, but it does mean intruding a bit early at times. It is better if there is a supply of drawn comb available for that purpose, and it is better to super from a full brood box than from one still clogged with sugar syrup.

The question arises then, of course, of why they were fed full in the autumn if they are going to be spoon-fed with fondant all through the winter. I prefer to leave my bees undisturbed for as long as possible over the winter. If they don't survive, maybe I need 'more suited to the climate' strains, or healthier bees. Either way I will not need to worry further about those that die for those reasons.

Annoying, yes, to lose colonies over the winter, but it happens. That is one reason for suggesting that beginners keep more than just the single colony.

Again, it is this thing about specific calender dates. They have no place in my bee year, apart from counting back from the expected OSR flow start. I always try to make sure there is plenty of laying space - that will head off early spring swarming in most cases - and if they are swarming because 'they are the wrong strain', do something about it. It may be your choice of placid bees and early swarms, or slightly less docile bees and much less swarming. Beekeeping is a compromise.

RAB

 

[Poly Hive]

Your best friend in Spring is the flat of your hive tool.

PH

 

[ksjs]

I hadn't heard about feeding too much now potentially causing swarming in spring

One can remove frames of stores in spring, but it does mean intruding a bit early at times. It is better if there is a supply of drawn comb available for that purpose, and it is better to super from a full brood box than from one still clogged with sugar syrup.

The question arises then, of course, of why they were fed full in the autumn if they are going to be spoon-fed with fondant all through the winter. I prefer to leave my bees undisturbed for as long as possible over the winter. If they don't survive, maybe I need 'more suited to the climate' strains, or healthier bees. Either way I will not need to worry further about those that die for those reasons.

I hadn't thought about removing stores in spring but that seems an obvious and easy thing to do though I guess most people won't have this 'problem'.

Having learnt a bit more I can now see that 2 hives, as a minimum, is nigh on essential if you want to keep bees for any period of time; definitely something I will be working towards next year (fingers crossed for a successful winter here!)

 

[ksjs]

It shouldn't have put you off!!! You want to have a full box of stores going into winter (ie now), you just don't want one coming out of it (ie in Spring when the queen starts laying heavily)...


Ben P

I get that but the queen went off lay around apiguard treatment and that was only taken out a few weeks ago. I was keen to try and make sure they had as many bees as possible for winter so after an initial feed when apiguard was taken off I haven't done so again (thus not clogging cells with stores - which by the way were at a premium when I last inspected, they seemed intent on putting honey in the middle of the very reduced brood nest). Mind you it's been about 3 wks since apiguard was removed so, if the queen has started laying again, there could / should be thousands of winter bees about to emerge? Maybe it's worth feeding again and seeing what happens.

 

[Teemore]

I hadn't thought about removing stores in spring but that seems an obvious and easy thing to do though I guess most people won't have this 'problem'.

Just to back up what has been said before on this point, can I commend to you all a little publication entitled "Instruction in Bee-Keeping for the Use of Irish Beekeepers". The book covers reducing the number of frames down in preparation for Winter and IIRC, removing unused stores in Spring. It also deals with brood spreading as a method of pushing Spring Build up - not too dissimilar to Murray/ITLD's Autumn brood spreading.

Whilst dated in terms of some of its practices and completely oblivious to Acarine and varroa etc. it contains a wealth of practical advice that reinforces an lot of the advice we regularly see put forward on this forum. The book is downloadable as a PDF if you Google the title and reprints are readily available. Even if you never apply anything you read in the book it is an interesting read.

 

[Into the lions den]

usual set up for feeding fondant - empty super above crown board. in this put 2 squares of 50mm kingspan (or similar). in the bottom one cut a rectangle out that will fit a chinese takeaway carton (plastic). place fondant in tray with slashed cling film across it. invert over feeder hole and leave. you can check the levels by removing the (loose fitting) upper sheet of insulation - add some string handles - without disturbing bees and replace fondant tray when needed.

All perfectly valid for feeding fondant, but to be honest even the tray is not needed, a simple poly bag tied off at the neck, slashed and with the cuts over the cluster (across the way mind, have seen some with the cuts running fore and aft and ony one or two seams of bees had access, even none on a couple of occasions). The bees happily come up inside the bag and clean it out very well.

Do not be mean with the fondant. Our standard block is a quarter box placed inside an HD poly bag and closed using one of those devices that have a roll of sellotape type stuff in it. ( My staff call it the 'pinger' for some reason best known to themselves......might mean something perfecty understandable in an Eastern european language)

If you have a massively stron hive at this time of year, short on stores, and covering 8 seams or more, just consider the possibility of giving them the whole box. If you do you just open the blue bag a little at the top and invert the block over the cluster. as it comes from the box you may need a deep box to cover it (if it is the Flemings/Apifonda/Ambrosia format box), but the Bako comes in a flatter format and sits happily under a shallow box or even inverted feeder. Even iff the box/feeder/eke or whatever does not sit down properly you vcan still use it, stick a couple of heavy rocks on top and over a couple of hours the fondant plattens and the gaps all close up.

Most have a rare old struggle slicing up the fondant into their chosen cake size. Easist way is to cut the blue film along the lines you would like to cut it, then have a bucket of hot water and a clean garden spade. Keep the spade in the water, and witht he fondant on the ground use the spade to slice down the precut lines. Cuts like butter that way.

 

[Into the lions den]

Very valid points.

I have tackled the issue of over feeding before, as they must have enough room left for the key autumn brood cycles.

Any colony fully fed should NOT need fondant as well in most UK settings. (Buckfast/Italian stock in a SE setting might be the exception). A very strong colony will have bees close to the top bars at any time, and it need not be a measure of needing fondant. If the cluster is down the hive and not right up at the top then they definitely do not need fondant at that time. If there are sealed stores (usually towards the rear of the box) in every seam with bees in it, then they do not yet need fondant.

Some use only fondant for feeding, but that is unusual and often requires regular winter access which may not be possible, and from my standpoint, not particularly desireable. Full feed in autumn, and DO NOT DISTURB for as much of the winter as possible. Beekeeper curiosity in winter is a potential hive killer.

Fondant is for us an emergency ration in winter, only used if absolutely necessary.

 

[ksjs]

Just to back up what has been said before on this point, can I commend to you all a little publication entitled "Instruction in Bee-Keeping for the Use of Irish Beekeepers". The book is downloadable as a PDF if you Google the title and reprints are readily available. Even if you never apply anything you read in the book it is an interesting read.

Got it, will have a read. Thanks.

 

[ksjs]

Any colony fully fed should NOT need fondant as well in most UK settings.

How do you know when the bees are fully fed? Will they police this themselves i.e. if there's a danger of over-storing such that lay space is insufficient they will stop?

 

[oliver90owner]

Will they police this themselves

Some will, some strains won't (they simply go on making more space by brooding more than they collect!

I have not autumn-fed for about the last 5 years. What I used to do was give them a good feed before treating, to fill up available space with brood, then wait until much later before feeding to fill again. The seasons 'were a changing' then, with less definition between summer and autumn. I always left a brood plus a super for winter when on deeps, so things were easier to manage than just the brood box (and so much easier with 14 x 12s now. Also, I started when Apistan strips were effective and didn't interupt the queen's lay rate (which is likely, effectively, the worker bees not feeding her enough).

I think if you were to go back to the eighties (long before I started keeping bees) and possibly nineties the seasons were much more distinct and bees went to bed more predictibly during October and didn't wake up (apart from a few cleansing days) until March (dates depending on your location, really). Perhaps not so much rush to get them brooding early in those days (OSR was a 'newer' crop and likely much later flowering than the modern cultivars).

So it is the thymol varroa treatment, nowadays, which has disrupted autumn build-up - many thanks (not) to those beeks that abused the pyrethroid strips (OK, mite resistance was predictable and would have happened later rather than then).

So it is up (or down?) to the beekeeper to help the bees through this time of disruption of brooding, and new beeks will only get the experience by thinking about their bees and maybe adjusting frames of stores in and out and back in again until they get the 'feel' of what is going to be needed. I am not afraid to remove full stores frames late into the autumn if needed.

As long as the end result is a full hive at the end of the active season and the bees are healthy, the winter is less of a challenge to them.

Doesn't really answer your question, as a starter with a unseasonable season like we have had this year, but I hope it helps. Summing up - I prefer to have spare frames of stores at the season-end than them being short of stores. They can be used sometime, somewhere.

Regards, RAB