Sorry but more wintering qs: wind, insulation & feeding?

[ksjs]

This is my first winter with bees and I've been thinking quite a bit about the effects of temperature, insulation and feeding for them recently. There's a few points I'd like to clear up:

1. We get some strong westerly winds. I have put up a makeshift windbreak (actually a small coal bunker) but am concerned this may be insufficient. That's not the issue though as I can obviously do something more effective.

It's more that my understanding is that cold has no real impact on the bees so why does having the hive in an exposed position matter i.e. wind is not blowing into the hive, wind chill doesn't matter and if anything wind should help reduce damp?

2. People say insulate roof but not hive sides. I think this is because it's thought that side insulation can reduce the hive's ability to breathe and may also increase condensation. I would have thought however that insulation on the outside would actually keep hive structure at a higher temp and therefore decrease likelihood of condensation forming internally?

Also, I am not convinced that the rate of water movement through wood is sufficiently fast to offset potential gains in warmth and environmental stability for the bees through additional insulation. Am I wrong?

3. My hive needs some more stores before going into winter (they had a frame that somehow [robbing?] developed large holes and I have just replaced this with a fresh frame). I have finished treating with apiguard and am now feeding syrup again. I hope this will top things up sufficiently (along possibly with some late forage - pollen coming in today). If it doesn't and I am still concerned can I just leave some candy in there, just in case?

On a practical level, how would I do this if the roof is insulated? Would it be something like: crown board, candy on top then insulation above (supported by legs to stop it resting on the candy) and then roof?

4. When is the latest that anyone would do a hive inspection to assess stores? I assume this is a function of conditions (temp) rather than any particular time of year?

If you've read that lot, thanks for persisting!

 

[bellabee]

I would be interested in any replies also

 

[drstitson]

usual set up for feeding fondant - empty super above crown board. in this put 2 squares of 50mm kingspan (or similar). in the bottom one cut a rectangle out that will fit a chinese takeaway carton (plastic). place fondant in tray with slashed cling film across it. invert over feeder hole and leave. you can check the levels by removing the (loose fitting) upper sheet of insulation - add some string handles - without disturbing bees and replace fondant tray when needed.

 

[drstitson]

on a windy site many would place an empty super between stand and floor OR add shuttering between the stand legs.

 

[bellabee]

Thanks drstitson,

Our bees currently have a brood and a half full of stores, we are fairly sure the queen is not laying much if anything at all at present. Do you think that is enough stores for winter without feeding... Or should we take actions now just incase?

Thanks in advance

 

[Erichalfbee]

A brood and a half is more than enough. It may be too much, you may even have to take out frames next spring but it all depends on how warm the winter will be. If you feed as well the bees may take fondant in preference to capped stores so you will have to remove frames of capped syrup in the spring and replace with drawn frames if you have any.
A common beginner mistake is to overfeed (I know, I've been guilty) and the colony swarms at the first bit of decent weather in the spring as it has very early in the season run out of space for the queen to lay.

 

[drstitson]

if you have a brood box plus full super you might consider putting the super under the brood box.

oh - whatever you decide to do - NO QE over winter.

 

[bellabee]

ericA, great advice, thanks. Ok I will leave in what they have brood and a half... and perhaps replace some new frames next year in spring to prevent swarming (?). Is this so the queen can have more space to lay?

Thanks again.x

 

[drstitson]

yes - and to stop syrup getting into your supers!

 

[Erichalfbee]

A windbreak should have gaps so that you don't get eddies over the top. Willow hurdles are good
[/COLOR]


2. People say insulate roof but not hive sides. I think this is because it's thought that side insulation can reduce the hive's ability to breathe and may also increase condensation. I would have thought however that insulation on the outside would actually keep hive structure at a higher temp and therefore decrease likelihood of condensation forming internally?



Poly hives do not breathe and they do not suffer from condensation because they are warmer.
I have wooden and poly hives.
The wooden one has top insulation and an open floor through winter. The bees are fine



4. When is the latest that anyone would do a hive inspection to assess stores? I assume this is a function of conditions (temp) rather than any particular time of year?



I haven't looked in my hives for 4 weeks now. I think it must be getting too late as far as temperature goes where you are especially if it's windy. I think you're looking for a still day at about 15˚

If you've read that lot, thanks for persisting!

Hope that helps

 

[ksjs]

usual set up for feeding fondant - empty super above crown board. in this put 2 squares of 50mm kingspan (or similar). in the bottom one cut a rectangle out that will fit a chinese takeaway carton (plastic). place fondant in tray with slashed cling film across it. invert over feeder hole and leave. you can check the levels by removing the (loose fitting) upper sheet of insulation - add some string handles - without disturbing bees and replace fondant tray when needed.

Good knowledge!

 

[ksjs]

on a windy site many would place an empty super between stand and floor OR add shuttering between the stand legs.

I'll try the super underneath or stand skirting to help.

 

[ksjs]

A brood and a half is more than enough. It may be too much, you may even have to take out frames next spring but it all depends on how warm the winter will be. If you feed as well the bees may take fondant in preference to capped stores so you will have to remove frames of capped syrup in the spring and replace with drawn frames if you have any.
A common beginner mistake is to overfeed (I know, I've been guilty) and the colony swarms at the first bit of decent weather in the spring as it has very early in the season run out of space for the queen to lay.

Never heard of this. I would have assumed that as stores were depleted space would be freed for laying though if they're taking fondant in preference maybe not. I can't see how a bit of fondant would be such a factor though: it surely would only act as a small boost to stores i.e. there's way more energy on a full comb than a small chunk of fondant?

Still, something to keep in mind. I think I do need to be careful: I'm using a national brood box and about 2 frames are largely dedicated to brood (or rather empty cells at the moment due to lack of laying caused I think either by recent apiguard or changing season) and 1 is only fresh foundation. Therefore I'm looking at 8 frames of stores for now which I believe is only just about enough for them to get by.

 

[ksjs]

Hope that helps

Yes, thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[Alabamaeee]

usual set up for feeding fondant - empty super above crown board. in this put 2 squares of 50mm kingspan (or similar). in the bottom one cut a rectangle out that will fit a chinese takeaway carton (plastic). place fondant in tray with slashed cling film across it. invert over feeder hole and leave. you can check the levels by removing the (loose fitting) upper sheet of insulation - add some string handles - without disturbing bees and replace fondant tray when needed.

Sounds good but I am wondering what to do in my case where I have solid floors. Do I leave any ventilation on the top or not?

I have seen the trick where you put 4 matchsticks under the crown board. If I do that can I then add a layer of insulation above with the cutout over a crown board hole to insert a fondant "take away" later?

 

[drstitson]

personally i don't like the idea of matchsticks for this reason:

assume each is only 2.5mm thick. doesn't sound like much does it?

BUT

4 sides x 460mm x 2.5mm = 46 cm2 gap around top.

that is equivalent to having a 7cm diameter chimney in the top of the hive.

would you leave a skylight or loft hatch open at home all winter?

if you must use solid floors i'd go with what finman uses - a small entrance hole at top of brood box.

 

[susbees]

1. We get some strong westerly winds. I have put up a makeshift windbreak (actually a small coal bunker) but am concerned this may be insufficient. That's not the issue though as I can obviously do something more effective. [/UNQUOTE]
South westerlies aren't the cold ones....its to the N/NE you need to look for wind protection in winter. All our hives are on one of our fields. First really cold patch we put windbreaker green mesh front to back over the tops of all the hives north to south and hold it down like a tent with rocks. This reduces the impact of cold northerlies AND stops the daft things coming out on a snowy day and freezing to death.

It's more that my understanding is that cold has no real impact on the bees [/UNQUOTE]
Except that they will consume more to keep warm enough. How much depending on the genetic mix of your bees.

2. People say insulate roof but not hive sides. [/UNQUOTE]
Some DO winterise hives in the UK and this far south certainly (Midlands)

On a practical level, how would I do this if the roof is insulated? Would it be something like: crown board, candy on top then insulation above (supported by legs to stop it resting on the candy) and then roof?[/UNQUOTE]
We insulate the top of a deep roof then add fondant by the Chinese tub method over the feed hole from late January IF the boxes heft light.

4. When is the latest that anyone would do a hive inspection to assess stores? I assume this is a function of conditions (temp) rather than any particular time of year?[/UNQUOTE]
You need to be able to heft the hive from outside...knowing whether you have a brood box filled with frames or a smaller number plus dummy board/insulation is essential in this.

 

[nealeholl]

place fondant in tray with slashed cling film across it.

Can you explain the purpose of the cling film please? I've heard suggestions
that the fondant can be squiggled down directly between the frames, so presumably there's no problem with the bees having direct access to the fondant?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Never heard of this. I would have assumed that as stores were depleted space would be freed for laying though if they're taking fondant in preference maybe not. I can't see how a bit of fondant would be such a factor though: it surely would only act as a small boost to stores i.e. there's way more energy on a full comb than a small chunk of fondant?

Still, something to keep in mind. I think I do need to be careful: I'm using a national brood box and about 2 frames are largely dedicated to brood (or rather empty cells at the moment due to lack of laying caused I think either by recent apiguard or changing season) and 1 is only fresh foundation. Therefore I'm looking at 8 frames of stores for now which I believe is only just about enough for them to get by.

A small chunk of fondant won't make that much difference,I agree but there is a tendency to keep replacing it if the bees take it. You'd be surprised how quickly bees can fill empty cells with nectar if there is a flow on, April this year? Lots of swarms reported at the end of the month.

 

[drstitson]

"Can you explain the purpose of the cling film please? I've heard suggestions"

to stop it drying out - a few small slashes and the bees just clamber in and mine the fondant as necessary.

"if you must use solid floors i'd go with what finman uses - a small entrance hole at top of brood box."

if i were on solid floors i'd consider cutting a short gap in the crownboard rim (assuming on bottom bee space) - about 1.5" long - and nailing/glueing a piece of varroa mesh over it.