Small cell (&/or foundationless) small bees experiences?

[BeeJayBee]

Actually just found some info. ...

The cells cocoons build up at the bottom (along with the poo, Finman) and the bees can 'ream out' the cells (like JBM said) to readdress the diameter after some high pressure tongue work. (made me feel quite inadequate JMB!) So it appears after they get too small the bees rebuild them like you said Finman.
Here is the Dave Cushman shortcut for others.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/smalboldcomb.html

If I remember correctly, from forum chat, the comb Dave Cushman was referring to came from ITLD. It had been used by ITLD's father (?or uncle?) and was at least 22 years old, possibly older. Which is another reason why it might be a good idea for bjosephd to try to contact ITLD and find out more from him.

 

[midnight sun]

If I remember correctly, from forum chat, the comb Dave Cushman was referring to came from ITLD. It had been used by ITLD's father (?or uncle?) and was at least 22 years old, possibly older. Which is another reason why it might be a good idea for bjosephd to try to contact ITLD and find out more from him.

Blimey! We're told at seminars how you should change comb every 3 yrs. ideally. Just shows how views on these things differ. Typical of bee keeping to some extent though!

 

[REDWOOD]

Blimey! We're told at seminars how you should change comb every 3 yrs. ideally. Just shows how views on these things differ. Typical of bee keeping to some extent though!

I wonder where that came from

 

[midnight sun]

I wonder where that came from

Now...where ...was...it?

 

[Hivemaker.]

I wonder where that came from

Not from ROB Manley.

Tough Old Combs
There is just one other point I would like to make. Bees always winter better on old combs than on new, and I think it matters not at all how old the combs are so long as they are in good condition otherwise. Really good old combs are one of the greatest assets a bee farmer can have. Some people have been foolish enough to advise the regular and systematic scrapping of brood-combs to the extent of 20 per cent per annum, and in so far as good worker combs are concerned, this is just silly advice. My counsel is, get rid of combs that have too many drone cells or are otherwise imperfect, but hang on tight to all others. The older they are the better bees will do on them. This is not theory, or some cracked idea of my own, but a fact which any intelligent beekeeper can prove for himself in a very short time.

 

[midnight sun]

Thanks Hivemaker. An interesting and useful post. That will help keep the budget down!

 

[Finman]

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If you look fotos of American bee combs, they are really black.

In Finland brood period is from May to August, 4 months. In southern USA period is almost year around. Combs become old 3 times faster than in Finland.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Not from ROB Manley.

I have to agree with HM. And Manley. I have combs that are many years old. The bees still fill them with healthy brood.

But, have you all seen entombed pollen? Pollen sealed away from the bees with a capping of propolis. Obviously the bees are trying to get rid of something they feel is bad. I can accept dark combs that aren't too droney, but once there is entombed pollen in the comb, it goes on the burn pile.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Blimey! We're told at seminars how you should change comb every 3 yrs. ideally. Just shows how views on these things differ. Typical of bee keeping to some extent though!

Yes, we are advised to keep comb for no longer than three years and I know some beekeepers who shook swarm their colonies onto fresh foundation every year.

As I hinted before I could be misremembering the conversation (where is ITLD when you need him??), but I'm sure those old combs had been in storage for some time, and were no longer in use. I don't think they exist any more.

It's an interesting exercise, though, to try to pull apart old comb when it's taken from the hive. Even if it's only 3 years old it's very strong, and won't tear or split easily. Wax moth love it, of course!

 

[bingevader]

I think the current 3 year advice is based on the prevalence of the various brood diseases that are creeping in all to commonly.
In the wild the wax moth would make it necessary for bees to rebuild on a regular basis.
If your main aim is honey production, then obviously you would want to minimise drone production.
However, aiming for a more natural percentage of drone comb can't help but improve the genetic diversity of the following generations.
We're constantly told of the threats to the bee population, but do little to encourage a natural solution.
Although working towards foundationless brood boxes and so unable to add first hand experience, I have also read that it can take several generations for the hive to reach a natural balance in terms of comb size and bee size.
I just don't think those kinds of long term research projects have take place yet.

 

[moo]

Achieving small cells with 35mm spacing is a no go as it is what they have been working with for years... I trimmed all my sidebars down so that now the spacing between midribs will be 32mm ...I will let you know how that goes. For those saying small cell is a myth, yes it isn't a silver bullet for varroa but it is definitely what they should be according to the old bee books so why shoot someone down for trying to undo man's folly, even if it doesn't have any effect. Worse case scenario is he has saved money on foundation by going foundationless, best case scenario no chemical interventions needed

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[madasafish]

Worse case scenario is he has saved money on foundation by going foundationless, best case scenario no chemical interventions needed

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Based on my experience of foundationless, there are other problems: like comb stability as combs may be not properly attached at sides.

Or overlapping combs, where bees start making comb at each end of a bar and they overlap where they meet.

Going foundationless has some costs - and those are two of them. Finding QCs with overlapping comb is NOT a quick or easy job. I speak from bitter experience..

 

[Tom Bick]

Achieving small cells with 35mm spacing is a no go as it is what they have been working with for years... I trimmed all my sidebars down so that now the spacing between midribs will be 32mm ...I will let you know how that goes.

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Yes will be interesting how you get on as it did not go well on a hive I tried. Perhaps with foundation or existing drawn comb it would have worked better but leaving the bees to build comb even with starter strips they soon started to go off centre indicating they wanted wider spacings. I have found the common 34mm spacing works just fine and coming round to the thinking that the slightly wider eleven spacing is even better but it's a bit early to say as it's only the 2nd year I have set hives up with this spacing. If memory serves me right I think the 32mm spacing came about in an attempt to reduce drone comb as it would prevent the bees producing drones on two adjacent combs?

 

[moo]

Perhaps I have advantages that I forgot to mention:

-I run rose OSB's (and although they are a 'national' frame) they aren't as deep therefore less chance of comb getting messed up & no need to wire or any of that carry on
-I have always kept a small spirit level in my bee toolkit to level hives and this must make a difference as I haven't experienced the problems others say comes with foundationless.


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[Finman]

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If bees have not enough spacing, they do no make brood on opposite comb.
That is their simple answer. I have plastic foundations which are twisted. There are large comb areas without brood.

In normal hive, where bees have drone brood zones, bees do not make brood on opposite cells.


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[bjosephd]

Well this has all got rather interesting. Sounds to me like there needs to be a whole new movement of longitudinal research, measurements, and observations again with apis mellifera left to form colonies and wild comb in a completely empty void once again. Forget adjusting our various frames a mm here and a mm there and adding chemicals, and just re-look again with a whole new list of observations to make. Back to basics I think... time to compare things to how bees would do things in the wild, rather than as compared to how they were doing things in the current or last manmade hive, intervention based, paradigm. Somebody call Tom Seeley.

 

[moo]

Unfortunately you're unlikely to get long-term funding for such a project. Also my cubit is different from your cubit and that is how bees build comb - the measurements they use are from their own bodies, which us beekeepers have controlled for over a hundred years, so it will take a while (without interventions) to get back to that.

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[midnight sun]

I have to agree with HM. And Manley. I have combs that are many years old. The bees still fill them with healthy brood.

But, have you all seen entombed pollen? Pollen sealed away from the bees with a capping of propolis. Obviously the bees are trying to get rid of something they feel is bad. I can accept dark combs that aren't too droney, but once there is entombed pollen in the comb, it goes on the burn pile.

New information for me. One to keep an eye out for. Thanks

 

[moo]

Pollen is like sauerkraut so perhaps they entomb it if the fermentation takes it past what they consider good for them... I have yet to see that, I will need to keep an eye out!

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[Finman]

New information for me. One to keep an eye out for. Thanks

What was the problem to be solved?

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