Small cell (&/or foundationless) small bees experiences?

[madasafish]

Foundationless for a few years now and yet to see what natural cell size is as a quick look at natural comb would show cells of various size. Some hives produce bees as big as foundation and others smaller but there is variation in both. One thing you do get is very big drones.

Yes: large drones here...as well..

 

[bjosephd]

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You want YES answer, but research Answers are NO.


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Not looking for a yes answer at all, I was just seeing if there was anyone out there who had actually done it. There are 20 studies, and most of them do indeed lean towards 'standard' cell size (re. varroa). Forgive me for being curious, I am not looking for any answer particularly, aside from someone who has first hand experience and personal observations. If that is nobody, then that is fine, and I will make a judgement based on things I have already read in books and on the internet like everybody else who doesn't have first hand experience in this particular instance.

I truly respect and appreciate all the knowledge and experience from you and many others on this forum, and I'm sure it will be invaluable for me when the next mad unpredictable thing happens with my bees. It's just with this subject I was asking for actual personal experience, that's all.

On another note though Mr Finman you'll be pleased to hear I'll be ordering myself some pine Langstroth parts today! As yet still a mesh floor, but maybe you can pursued me to get a solid floor by autumn!

 

[Finman]

I think to get them to build smaller cells in proportion to their size you would need small cell foundation.

Many beekeeper have tried small cell foundations in Finland but bees could not handle small size. They only ruin the foundations.

Natural combs are very expencive. If bees do their own combs, one box of langstroth needs 15 kg honey to make wax. 2 kg wax is needed. With foundations 6-8 kg honey is needed to draw combs- Then too much drone combs are build.

So every box of narural combs are £ 50 more expencive than Foundation combs. In good hive you need 5 boxes combs and the extra p
rice of natural combs is £ 250/ hive.

every year you need 2 box more new combs and you pay every year £ 100 per hive for naturtal happiness.

Then you give honey for winter 20 kg. It is £ 6/ kg. So the natural extra cost will be £ 100/hive.

summary: £ 200/ hive extra every year when you nurse bees "naturally".
10 hives 100 hives...

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[bjosephd]

Too much drone comb built when using foundation? Or two much drone when foundationless?

It's interesting that left to their own devices bees seem to build a lot more drone comb.

 

[Finman]

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The main purpose of living creatures is to reproduce.

In natural beehives percentage of drone combs is about 25%.

Then there less foragers and less honey yield.

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[bjosephd]

That's a lot of big fat bees!

If everyone left their hives to produce as many drones as the bees wanted then I imagine all queens would end up far better/reliably mated!

And maybe even hives would become less overcrowded so quickly as a 25% get out the hive, go mate, and die before returning.

Interesting.

 

[midnight sun]

Into the lions den disclaimed the theory of bees getting smaller with old comb a few years ago and was shelved as another beekeeping myth

I must admit ,that I was taught on my beginners course that old comb should be replaced, not just for hygiene reasons, but due to the cells getting smaller as each successive cocoon was left behind after emergence, lining the cell and therefore reducing the inner volume over time. Are you saying that this is in correct or that it makes no difference?

 

[bontbee]

I must admit ,that I was taught on my beginners course that old comb should be replaced, not just for hygiene reasons, but due to the cells getting smaller as each successive cocoon was left behind after emergence, lining the cell and therefore reducing the inner volume over time. Are you saying that this is in correct or that it makes no difference?

Me too and, in the past, I have seen some very tiny bees in some very black, very old comb, with very small cells drawn long, long ago, from foundation... that tended to be years ago, before these enlightened days of better hygiene and comb management. (I recall one beekeeper boasting that he had had the comb for over 20 years )

Oops, sorry bjd, just realised that I have just done what you didn't want...

 

[Finman]

I must admit ,that I was taught on my beginners course that old comb should be replaced, not just for hygiene reasons, but due to the cells getting smaller as each successive cocoon was left behind after emergence, lining the cell and therefore reducing the inner volume over time. Are you saying that this is in correct or that it makes no difference?

What you write is very true.
I have seen how bees tear totally down old combs and make new. If comb is spoiled by mold, bees will chew that comb away.

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[midnight sun]

Errm! So is it true that bees get smaller due to cocoon lining getting too thick and so they replace the old comb with new bigger cells? Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That used to be the thinking but I think it's now Been found not to be the case. Bees regularly clean out the build up of detritus on the cell walls so there shouldn't be that much difference

 

[REDWOOD]

And not all bees are built the same, genes/whatever just like any other species.

 

[Finman]

That used to be the thinking but I think it's now Been found not to be the case. Bees regularly clean out the build up of detritus on the cell walls so there shouldn't be that much difference

That is wrong information Jenkins.
You can separate each pupa silk from cell and there is a small droplet of poo between each silk.

Cell become smaller and finally bees tear down the whole comb.

 

[midnight sun]

 

[midnight sun]

Stop press
Actually just found some info. (google has a mind of it's own!)and it appears you are both right in a way.
The cells cocoons build up at the bottom (along with the poo, Finman) and the bees can 'ream out' the cells (like JBM said) to readdress the diameter after some high pressure tongue work. (made me feel quite inadequate JMB!) So it appears after they get too small the bees rebuild them like you said Finman.
Here is the Dave Cushman shortcut for others.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/smalboldcomb.html

This was sort of a team effort. Admin WILL be pleased after recent events!
PS I'll now get a bollocking from RAB for not Googleing the subject first place!

 

[bjosephd]

Well what a journey all these threads take... safe to say I have ordered standard foundation with my new Langstroth, with a mind to trying to have gradually more foundationless frames sooner or later in order to let them build whatever size cells they like.

 

[Tom Bick]

A part built comb with various sized cells so natural cells come in a variation of sizes. It also shows the bees have no preference on the orientation of the cells.

 

[bjosephd]

Nice picture Tom,

Interestingly the cells look smaller in the centre where the brood would be, and larger towards the edges where the stores would go.

 

[Finman]

.when I have a pollen comb which is frozen, then I brake the the comb to get pollen, all pollen tubes are inside silk tube. The wax you can see as thin cell walls.

 

[Tom Bick]

It's only a small part built comb so in time would all be brood and later if the bees wanted to filled with stores. The bees often start two or three small combs and in time join them together i would say it's this joining that gives most of the variation and slight distortion of the ccells. From my observations on average the bees settle on approx 20% drone comb in the nest so you get a big population of drones and sometimes are very big. There's a nice love hate relationship with the workers and the drones and sometimes quite funny when you open the hive.