Small cell (&/or foundationless) small bees experiences?

[bjosephd]

Small cell foundation and reverting to smaller bees.

Who has actually tried this and what has been your experience?

If you haven't tried it then no need to tell me what I've already read and googled.

For those who have a foundationless approach, have you found your bees have gradually got smaller?

Any other benefits of either? Or problems with either? (aside from the difficulties of getting them to build comb exactly where you want it.

Reading Michael Bush book and it's very interesting... and about to make a reasonable sized foundation order.

Thoughts please!

 

[thenovice]

thanks for putting this to our attention. I had no clue! I can just tell that I went foundationless last year. cells seem definately smaller, I have not measured them but the bees do not look smaller. again, have not measured. I don't know if I will start the experiment of measuring but I will certainly read up on it. good luck in your query and I will be following this thread closely!

 

[bingevader]

We're in the process of changing over and so are only doing a few frames at a time as they empty.
The cells they are building at the moment are mostly drone.

 

[BeeJayBee]

For those who have a foundationless approach, have you found your bees have gradually got smaller?

No, no noticeable difference, not that I've taken the time to measure the bees.

Any other benefits of either?

• Bees build their own comb, the way they've evolved.
• No residues in wax from other, unknown, beekeepers. (Not sure if these may be filtered out during processing?)
• Not dependent on the foibles of the big-name suppliers. (But would still buy from KBS if I need to.)
• If they want drones they may build a whole frame of drone cells, or will build half a frame of worker and half a frame of drone.
• Tend to build only drone-size cells in supers, so each cell will contain more honey.
• Cheaper, especially if using monofilament fishing line instead of frame wire.
• On big frames horizontal wiring makes the comb more secure during inspections. (Sometimes the loops on foundation are too short to bend round bottom bars and bees don't build right down to the bottom bars on big frames, so the loops can come loose and comb can flop.)

Or problems with either?

• It takes more time to drill and wire frames than to just add foundation. (Continental suppliers do, I believe, sell drilled frames as standard. Our lot seem to expect us to buy foundation.)
• If adding a full complement of frames to a brood box at the same time (shook swarm, or receving a swarm) and if all the frames have starter strips, it's a good idea to make sure the strips are very well attached, because with all the wax-making the temperature can get quite high throughout the whole box (not compartmentalised by frames of foundation) and loosely attached strips can drop to the bottom of the box.

 

[madasafish]

Small cell is BS.

I have kept topbars for 5 years with no foundation at all and the cell size when measured 2 years ago and compared on this forum was EXACTLY the same size as people with Nationals.

Mine have still not reverted.

So I conclude it's a load of "natural beekeeping" propaganda with no foundation in fact - like much of the claimed benefits.

The same strains of bees I keep in langs were in topbars.. No change in temperament, No change in queen losses.No change in varroa drops. No evident differences..

Perhaps if I was conducting a measurement using hundreds of hives ... but as no-one ever appears to have....


I'd rather trust Opinion Pollsters (or Bankers) than people claiming small cell is better

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks for your comments.

So it seems that just going foundationless may be unlikely to instigate a reversion (or at least one that doesn't take a lifetime) - I wonder if due to the fact that bees will continue to build cells in proportion to their size. So without using small cell foundation they will simply continue at their current size.

So who out there has actually reverted their bees to a smaller size using small cell foundation?

If you haven't actually done it then please don't comment.

 

[Finman]

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When my bees draw wild combs, worker cells are 5,3 mm.

 

[bjosephd]

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When my bees draw wild combs, worker cells are 5,3 mm.

Yep, I believe that bees build comb in proportion to their size. So if they were to revert with wild comb only it might not happen at all, or at least will take a good many gradual years.

I think to get them to build smaller cells in proportion to their size you would need small cell foundation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Small cell is BS.

I have kept topbars for 5 years with no foundation at all and the cell size when measured 2 years ago and compared on this forum was EXACTLY the same size as people with Nationals.

Mine have still not reverted.

So I conclude it's a load of "natural beekeeping" propaganda with no foundation in fact - like much of the claimed benefits.

The same strains of bees I keep in langs were in topbars.. No change in temperament, No change in queen losses.No change in varroa drops. No evident differences..

Perhaps if I was conducting a measurement using hundreds of hives ... but as no-one ever appears to have....


I'd rather trust Opinion Pollsters (or Bankers) than people claiming small cell is better

I think to get them to build smaller cells in proportion to their size you would need small cell foundation.

But why would you want to? why would you want dwarf bees? it has already been proven that the whole thing about smaller bees etc. is a load of flannel, and anyway - look at drone brood - we give the bees worker foundation, but when they want bigger cells they just go ahead and do it. So why foolishly spend loads of money on this magic smaller cell foundation - bees will still build cells in proportin to their size.
As Madasafish said - it's a load of ox excrement

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks for your comments.

...

If you haven't actually done it then please don't comment.

But thanks for your opinion.

 

[Tom Bick]

Small cell foundation and reverting to smaller bees.

Who has actually tried this and what has been your experience?

If you haven't tried it then no need to tell me what I've already read and googled.

For those who have a foundationless approach, have you found your bees have gradually got smaller?

Any other benefits of either? Or problems with either? (aside from the difficulties of getting them to build comb exactly where you want it.

Reading Michael Bush book and it's very interesting... and about to make a reasonable sized foundation order.

Thoughts please!

Foundationless for a few years now and yet to see what natural cell size is as a quick look at natural comb would show cells of various size. Some hives produce bees as big as foundation and others smaller but there is variation in both. One thing you do get is very big drones.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Foundationless for a few years now and yet to see what natural cell size is as a quick look at natural comb would show cells of various size. Some hives produce bees as big as foundation and others smaller but there is variation in both. One thing you do get is very big drones.

Got quite a few foundationless frames dotted around in my hives

 

[BeeJayBee]

So who out there has actually reverted their bees to a smaller size using small cell foundation?

Try reading this http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=468488#post468488 and post #161 which says

Actually small cell is a proven myth, and has been a disaster that has caused heavy cash losses to people I thought would have known better, as this one looked like a lemon right from the off some years ago. One guy admits sinking 60K into changing to small cell, and it had precisely zero effect. There is a very sneaky background story to small cell, but way way off topic for this thread. ​

Then scroll forwards to #182.

You could message ITLD and see if he will tell you some more?

 

[Michael Palmer]

So I conclude it's a load of "natural beekeeping" propaganda with no foundation in fact - like much of the claimed benefits.

Faith Based Beekeeping

 

[REDWOOD]

Into the lions den disclaimed the theory of bees getting smaller with old comb a few years ago and was shelved as another beekeeping myth

 

[madasafish]

Faith Based Beekeeping

Faith is good.
Measurement - if possible - is better.

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks for all your comments.

However, as I said before, I can google plenty on the subject, and have read up summaries of about 15 studies that have been done over the past 20 years. All of which only looked at its effect on varroa.

So I have read research (much of which is somewhat flawed with either result), and have read plenty of opinions from people who haven't tried it. It would be interesting to chat to someone who actually has first hand experience, as I am also interested on other observations aside from it's affect, or not, on varroa.

This is why I was looking to see if there was anyone here who had actually tried it and their experiences.

So please, for the 3rd time if you haven't actually done it then please don't comment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Going to be a quiet thread from now on then

 

[bjosephd]

Going to be a quiet thread from now on then

Haha... indeed!

I think it should have been quiet from the beginning.

Anyway, I've changed my mind... I'm gonna try square cell beekeeping now... get me some square bees... square honey tastes better, and more cells per frame.

 

[Finman]

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You want YES answer, but research Answers are NO. There are not many researchers about issue, but there are much fake studies.

But they are your bees.



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