Should I replace an emergency queen?

[Potter]

Hi all, this is my first post so hope its in the right place.

I conducted a split over a month ago, a 1 to 2 split. The new hive created a new queen and she is laying well.

About a week after the split on my next inspection I noticed emergency queen cells in the old hive. (That should have had the queen). I guess I must have damaged/killed the queen somehow during the split.

So at this point i had two queenless hives awaiting emergency queens, the new hive was about 1 week ahead of the old hive. After a few weeks the new hive had a succesfully mated queen laying really well. I was expecting the old hive to be the same but after two weeks there was still nothing. I assumed the worst and didnt want to risk trying to make another emergency queen with a frame from the old hive so bought a mated queen.

I went to introduce the mated queen today, about 3-4 days after my last check, and about 2 week after expecting to see the first eggs, and there is very young eggs larvae in the hive. I must have either just missed her, or overlooked the eggs.

I now have a laying queen, but not sure yet if she was successfully mated, and a caged mated queen. I will hold on to the caged queen for a bit until i can tell if the emergency queen has successfully mated. But what should i do if she has. Should i still replace her with new queen, as she is a buckfast mated and so i assume better than an emergency queen. Or should i just leave the emergency queen and keep this as a lesson to be patient?

Thanks for any help or advice.

 

[B+.]

Hi all, this is my first post so hope its in the right place.

I conducted a split over a month ago, a 1 to 2 split. The new hive created a new queen and she is laying well.

About a week after the split on my next inspection I noticed emergency queen cells in the old hive. (That should have had the queen). I guess I must have damaged/killed the queen somehow during the split.

So at this point i had two queenless hives awaiting emergency queens, the new hive was about 1 week ahead of the old hive. After a few weeks the new hive had a succesfully mated queen laying really well. I was expecting the old hive to be the same but after two weeks there was still nothing. I assumed the worst and didnt want to risk trying to make another emergency queen with a frame from the old hive so bought a mated queen.

I went to introduce the mated queen today, about 3-4 days after my last check, and about 2 week after expecting to see the first eggs, and there is very young eggs larvae in the hive. I must have either just missed her, or overlooked the eggs.

I now have a laying queen, but not sure yet if she was successfully mated, and a caged mated queen. I will hold on to the caged queen for a bit until i can tell if the emergency queen has successfully mated. But what should i do if she has. Should i still replace her with new queen, as she is a buckfast mated and so i assume better than an emergency queen. Or should i just leave the emergency queen and keep this as a lesson to be patient?

Thanks for any help or advice.

It sounds like you had a virgin/newly mated queen in the hive when you performed your initial inspection.
By definition, an emergency queen is one that the bees made under extreme conditions (e.g. suddenly becoming queenless). They don't necessarily choose the larvae that we, as beekeepers, would choose (i.e. 1-2 day old) because they want a queen in the shortest possible time. They may choose an older larva that was already being fed a workers diet. A purpose-made queen will usually be made from a very young larvae and reared under conditions which give it the best start in life. That doesn't always make it the "best" queen because a lot depends on how it is mated - but we can assume, in your case, it is.
If you have a "push in" cage (see Richard Noels video of Mike Palmer here ) you can simply replace one queen with another, give her a few days to be accepted then remove the cage.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This illustrates the value of a test frame brilliantly. Do as B+ suggests. Kill the queen and introduce the new one under a push in cage.

 

[Swarm]

Keep what you've got, return the one you bought.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Keep what you've got, return the one you bought.

That’s because you don’t like orange bees

 

[Swarm]

He could kill the accepted, laying queen he has and introduce the bought one and then they reject and slay her and then ....
Sounds a bit like a lady in my association, convinced of Q-, new Carnica queen obtained only to find signs of laying on next inspection. Carnica queen went back to supplier as not required, in fact she couldn't give it away.

Bird in the hand and all that

 

[Potter]

Thanks for all your responses. Really appreciate the advice.

I was going to do a test frame but had left the hive 2 weeks longer than what I expected already, and was getting nervous about how long it had been without a queen... lesson learned.

Thanks again.

 

[Swarm]

When you are beginning to feel they've had long enough, give them another week and let them astound you.

With regards emergency queens, scrub queens and other slurs, a Bulgarian friend of mine replaces all his stock this way, splits the hive before swarm activity and lets them get on with it.
I've told him that many Brit beeks would consider these as 'scrub' queens and all he does is laugh and point at his supers.

 

[Erichalfbee]

With regards emergency queens, scrub queens and other slurs, a Bulgarian friend of mine replaces all his stock this way, splits the hive before swarm activity and lets them get on with .

I agree
Nothing wrong with emergency queens at all provided you whittle them down to Queens made on young larvae not the three day old ones that the bees will first make. i just hated the idea of a nice Buckie going to waste

 

[Beefriendly]

Nothing wrong with emergency queens at all provided you whittle them down to Queens made on young larvae

Nothing at all,...They only look like scrub queens as the queen cells looks much shorter...but as they are starting with an egg at the bottom of a cell, rather than a queen cup raised above the level of the top of a cell it's bound to look smaller. Which is where I presume most beeks look at them and assume (because they look smaller) that they are developing "scrub" queens.
Silly them.....

 

[eltalia]

(edit)
... a week after the split on my next inspection I noticed emergency queen cells in the old hive. (That should have had the queen). I guess I must have damaged/killed the queen somehow during the split.

[...]
Thanks for any help or advice.

... more likely she went with a swarm, but whatever.
Euthanase that newly mated queen, wait maybe an hour and place your
mated caged queen between the topbars - exit tube high.

Bill

 

[masterBK]

I seem to remember some research a few years ago showed that most colonies in an emergency situation tend to select 2 day old larvae to convert. Also most queen rearing methods produce queens from larvae initially laid in worker cells. In my limited experience, if the colony is strong with plenty of nectar and pollen coming the emergency queen produced is usually on a par with queens produced by other impulses.

 

[eltalia]

I seem to remember some research a few years ago showed that most colonies in an emergency situation tend to select 2 day old larvae to convert. Also most queen rearing methods produce queens from larvae initially laid in worker cells. In my limited experience, if the colony is strong with plenty of nectar and pollen coming the emergency queen produced is usually on a par with queens produced by other impulses.

Age is dependent on the emergency.
Queens will emerge where well developed larvae only
were present. In my experience (from cutouts) the
queen is either 'deformed' or too poor to layup.

Bill

 

[B+.]

Keep what you've got, return the one you bought.

It's worrying that you are viewing a living creature like a can of beans. They are perishable and worth less after being out of the hive for any length of time. I won't even touch upon the uncertainty that you are returning the queen that the vendor sent. Surely, this is a case for all sales being final. I wouldn't dream of returning a queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I seem to remember some research a few years ago showed that most colonies in an emergency situation tend to select 2 day old larvae to convert. Also most queen rearing methods produce queens from larvae initially laid in worker cells. In my limited experience, if the colony is strong with plenty of nectar and pollen coming the emergency queen produced is usually on a par with queens produced by other impulses.

Yes but why keep a hotch potch queen when you have a nice Buckie in your hand.

 

[Eyeman]

Hi all, this is my first post so hope its in the right place.

I conducted a split over a month ago, a 1 to 2 split. The new hive created a new queen and she is laying well.

About a week after the split on my next inspection I noticed emergency queen cells in the old hive. (That should have had the queen). I guess I must have damaged/killed the queen somehow during the split.

So at this point i had two queenless hives awaiting emergency queens, the new hive was about 1 week ahead of the old hive. After a few weeks the new hive had a succesfully mated queen laying really well. I was expecting the old hive to be the same but after two weeks there was still nothing. I assumed the worst and didnt want to risk trying to make another emergency queen with a frame from the old hive so bought a mated queen.

I went to introduce the mated queen today, about 3-4 days after my last check, and about 2 week after expecting to see the first eggs, and there is very young eggs larvae in the hive. I must have either just missed her, or overlooked the eggs.

I now have a laying queen, but not sure yet if she was successfully mated, and a caged mated queen. I will hold on to the caged queen for a bit until i can tell if the emergency queen has successfully mated. But what should i do if she has. Should i still replace her with new queen, as she is a buckfast mated and so i assume better than an emergency queen. Or should i just leave the emergency queen and keep this as a lesson to be patient?

Thanks for any help or advice.

Put the bought Buckfast into a nuc.
It's too soon to know whether your 2 newly mated queens are up-to-the-job. Assess the performance of your 2 newly mated queens over the next month or so and if one is below par replace her with the Buckfast. Otherwise overwinter the Buckfast in a nuc.

 

[Swarm]

It's worrying that you are viewing a living creature like a can of beans. They are perishable and worth less after being out of the hive for any length of time. I won't even touch upon the uncertainty that you are returning the queen that the vendor sent. Surely, this is a case for all sales being final. I wouldn't dream of returning a queen.

???
I think you've got that the wrong way around. Queens certainly are perishable and you are suggesting he kills one. Mail order is more like a 'can of beans' than a queen that has been reared and appears in a colony naturally.