Should I feed colony which already has 4 frames of stores?

[Swarm]

lol here we go again....

 

[ksjs]

Have you got a Queen excluder in place? If so it may be worth removing it for a week or so to encourage the bees to move into it and start drawing the foundation. Spraying the foundation lightly with light sugar syrup also helps. It's a little cool for good comb drawing but they will if they need to.

The cappings on stored sugar syrup looks different to honey stores.

As someone has already stated, there's a danger of the brood box being blocked by too much stores which can lead to swarming.

Last thing, don't be offended by Finman.

QE in place (I do wonder how good it is, one of the plastic ones that I've had to make an eke for - annoyed I was sold it in the first place). If I remove it what about brood in super? Is it simply a case of keep an eye on things and replace QE once foundation started?

As to honey / sugar stores question: their stores look beautiful, like I think honey does / should. A sort of frosted white, very consistent in height and colour & slightly transparent. Does that sound like honey or sugar?

Right now there is quite a bit of unlaid brood space but I'd need to have another look to be sure how much, maybe 2-3 frames. Though there were a lot of eggs so I could have missed 1 day old ones for example. I still can't believe how much their activity was concentrated on only the frames with brood.

I realise there's a bit of lost in translation with Finman's posts and it sounds like I misunderstood on this occasion. Letting them get on with it with minimum fuss is how I'd prefer to do things which is what he seems to be suggesting.

 

[oliver90owner]

Does that sound like honey or sugar?

Well. tell us - because you have not yet mentioned it - did you feed with any sugar (syrup, fondant or solid) last autumn?

RAB

 

[ksjs]

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Those food frames take 40% out of brood space.
Nothing alarming in the head?

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One box hive needs 2 food store frames and not more.
If it has not, feed it. A full langstroth frame has 2-2,5 kg food.

Should I be alarmed? It's early in the season and they're building up so need food. People feed their bees at this time of year so as they have stores. They have a super so have space to expand into / move stores to.

With my limited knowledge it's not difficult to conclude that having 4 frames in there makes sense but it sounds like I need to think about this more carefully.

I do wonder about the weather and prolonged periods of enforced confinement: we can get a lot of consecutive windy and wet days in North Wales, like we're having at the moment. On balance, maybe erring on the side of caution is better in this part of the world.

Anyone have a view on how much is enough in terms of stores in the BB? Or is this a constantly changing amount based on time of year, stage the colony is at etc?

 

[ksjs]

Does that sound like honey or sugar?

Well. tell us - because you have not yet mentioned it - did you feed with any sugar (syrup, fondant or solid) last autumn?

RAB

Sugar syrup last autumn.

Is it impossible that they could have used this and then made up 4 frames during spring from flow?

Is it possible that they could have got through winter on, let's say, 6 frames i.e. 11 less the 4 that are there less 1 as all frames weren't 100% full of stores going into winter?

 

[oliver90owner]

Brood space, to which Finman referred (explicitly, I think) is a very important factor in hive management, particularly when using a small brood box like a National (or even worse, a WBC). Stores frames occupying space needed for brood is not good.

 

[ksjs]

By the way, everyone's time and help on this is much appreciated so thanks to all who have posted.

 

[ksjs]

Brood space, to which Finman referred (explicitly, I think) is a very important factor in hive management, particularly when using a small brood box like a National (or even worse, a WBC). Stores frames occupying space needed for brood is not good.

Sounds like a bit of an art, which I am yet to develop. I guess I was/am aiming to work on the basis of 'make sure they have enough space and they will take care of things' but perhaps this is too blunt an approach.

 

[oliver90owner]

Sugar syrup last autumn.

Thankyou.

That sorts out that one.

You don't want 'sugar honey' in super frames. OK if you want to eat bee-processed sugar, but if you might be considering selling any, it would be contravening the rules. It may or may not be detected, but is not a good idea.

Using them for an extra split, at A/S time, would better guarantee you getting at least one queen mated. You either then have potentially three colonies or the option to reduce to two by uniting, picking the better queen of the two young ones, or to replace the old queen later in the season.

RAB

 

[Hebeegeebee]

You'll have to excuse Finman, he lives far away. I would say well done for resisting the temptation to inspect until now.

What Finman might not appreciate is the effect of the weather lately. That cold spell will have reduced egg laying and you might have quite a bit of space in that brood box.

Given that it is likely to stay cold for a while, I'd leave them with the 4 frames of stores for now and take away any spare when the weather picks up. When it is warm enough and they need the space they will draw the foundation in the super. No need to open stores for them - they will do it themselves when they are ready. If the brood box is getting full at that point they will move stores upstairs. If it is last year's honey, great. If it is syrup you might like to take a couple of frames away when they look like using the super properly and when it looks like they are bringing nectar in.

I agree with Gavin. You have not messed with your bees and they are fine. Putting a super on when bee numbers increases is a good idea too. if the weather in your part of the world is like mine, then I would leave the stores in for now. Unless there is decent forage the bees will be less likely to start drawing the super frames. If you're not sure if stores are sugar or syrup, poke your finger in.

 

[Finman]

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You are teaching me weather aspects?

Rub your eyes guys....on your Palm Beach!

....now I go to install heating cables to hives.
My bees are not so weather resistant as yours.

 

[ksjs]

Thanks all. Will leave the stores in for now and keep an eye on things to avoid over-crowding - and have a taste to see whether it's honey / sugar

 

[Finman]

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Heh heh. That keep an eye.
Is it easier to take 2 frames off thankeep an eye. smile.
.

 

[aberreef]

.
You are teaching me weather aspects?

Rub your eyes guys....on your Palm Beach!

....now I go to install heating cables to hives.
My bees are not so weather resistant as yours.

Cold would be nice, at least we would be dry then. March here was beautiful, warm sunshine. This month is damp and miserable but bees are still forraging and filling their super

Do you put heating cables on to bost the colonies ready for the warmer weather? How long do you need to keep them on for?

 

[Finman]

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I keep cables to end of May. we may have frost here at the beginning of June.
Our apple trees and dandelions start to bloom then.
Autumn rape blooms here at the first week of June.
Then hives will have 3-4 boxes. Smallest have one box.

 

[MandF]

Devils advocate question, why is it necessarily so bad to have some PROCESSED sugar syrup in a batch of honey, as opposed to some PROCESSED nectar?

As long as the total sucrose content in the batch is below the legal maximum.

I dont think there is any practicable way we can all be 100% sure we have no processed syrup (or fondant) in the supers unless we dont feed them syrup/fondant at all.

I am of a mind to treat processed syrup the same as uncapped "honey" in supers - as long as the overall batch is legal, its fine.

As I said, devils advocate question before RAB shoots me down.

 

[oliver90owner]

I am of a mind to treat processed syrup the same as uncapped "honey" in supers - as long as the overall batch is legal, its fine.

YOU may think so, but Trading Standards are not so stupid as to not know what is going on. If your, say OSR, honey has a much higher sucrose level than your neighbours, they will be testing your honey next time round and not the neighbour's. They will be testing more samples for pH and any other indicators, too.

Those results will/can be kept for future reference. Honey should be honey, not sugar syrup. 'Legal' is one thing, 'fine' is another. There is more than a subtle difference between a 'very small amount' and just keeping the right side of the maximum permissible.

 

[Ely]

OP. As a beginner myself in his second year. I would go with the original advise that after so many posts has become unclear. Take two frames of stores out and replace with foundation. 4 frames is too much in a brood box even in cold weather. And as long as you manage to fit weekly inspections in from now on you can monitor the brood and stores without risk of starvation.

 

[MandF]

I guess the distinction I am trying to make is the difference between what the OP and others whose colonies came through winter with lots of autumn feed, and people who are deliberately feeding bees to get processed syrup.

All things being equal you would hope your bees used their overwinter syrup stores for feeding/wax building, and by the time they get to storing in supers it will all be nectar, but that is not always going to be the case and there is a good chance supers will contain some processed syrup.

I think this will be the case with most hobby beekeepers, we feed them lots in autumn, and give them fondant over winter and play it safe wrt not letting hives starve - we err on the side of caution.

There is also a distinction, I feel, between processed syrup/fondant ending up in supers, and the conmen who simply add syrup to batches of honey. Personally speaking I consider hobby beekeeper's honey as "pure" even if it will contain some processed syrup as a result of feeding bees.

As I said, for me the distinction is between those, and people who either deliberately feed bees for the processed syrup, or those who add syrup to bulk out honey. I dont think us amateurs/hobbyists need to be too anal about it.

 

[Finman]

I dont think there is any practicable way we can all be 100% sure we have no processed syrup (or fondant) in the supers unless we dont feed them syrup/fondant at all.
.

the law is under 10% cane sugar in honey.

It means 2 full frames syrup in 50 kg yield.

But if you do it wise, bees will consume the winter sugar before bees start to store surpluss.

But if you have a bad luck, a swarm escapes early and leave to you last winter syrup as a yield.



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