Shook Swarm

[Sadcrab]

I got some bees today, I want to shook swarm them from national into commercial should I leave them to get used to their new surroundings before shook swarming or just get on and do it?

 

[Moggs]

How strong is the workforce? How much brood? Queen laying well? Condition of comb? Temperature/ weather? Flow on? Will you feed?


I've had that déjà vu before...

 

[MuswellMetro]

WHY DESTROY THE BROOD wth a shook swarm, do a bailey change,and let their brood ememgre

i am doing three bailey changing frames currently (one is 14x12 to commercial)

 

[Erichalfbee]

A bailey is a bit of a protracted nuisance but much better than losing all your brood. IMHO

 

[bontbee]

Do you need to get rid of the brood???

 

[Sadcrab]

Bees are quite aggresive and the frames are in tight. There are pleanty of bees and the frames I have seen are quite old. There is brood in however I have not gone in far enough to see any eggs.

 

[MuswellMetro]

A shook swarm on an aggressive hive may make you give up beekeeping

i would lets them settle for a one or two days to orientate then

1) on a calm warm day move the national 15ft away from its site then place the commercial brood box with new foundation on the original site with new floor and crown board
2) wait an hour for foragers to leave the national
3) remove all store frames from both side of the national brood and dummy it down to one side of the box and fill void with bubble wrap
4) move the commercial to the side repalce the national on the original site
5) place the commercial on top
6) feed it syrup and or crushed stores (spray stores with water if solid)
7) wait 7 days and inspect the top commercial, feed & inspect every 4 to 7 days until the queen is laying in top box
8) when queen is in top box QE under commcial and remove the lower national box in 21 days

it works better with an entrance eke ( apiguard eke with three 9 mm holes drilled in it) directly under the commcial and a closed bottom entrance but works without, although some use 12 frames in a box, if they are aggrresive or runny it would be better to use 11 frames and a dummy board

 

[Finman]

.
In what stage the hive is, who knows.

If you shake the bees, most of them are wintered bees and die off in 2 weeks.
Future is in brood. But if they are angry, future is not nice.

If you can buy a new queen, buy such and change the angry one.

 

[jonnybeegood]

.
In what stage the hive is, who knows.

If you shake the bees, most of them are wintered bees and die off in 2 weeks.
Future is in brood. But if they are angry, future is not nice.

If you can buy a new queen, buy such and change the angry one.

why do you say wintered bees die off quickly, even in two weeks on here?
According to Ted Hooper over wintered bees could last all summer, at least Q- ones he mentions because they have been the last bees to hatch before winter they haven't had to look after brood & so aren't as "burnt out"
This is confusing me now, how long can overwintered bees live? I also keep seeing people with Q- hives being told to reunite with other hives as the bees will die off & wouldn't be able to look after any brood on a frame put in to produce a queen. If what Ted Hooper says is true surely they would have time to rear a new queen.

 

[dexter's shed]

being a novice/beginner keeper, I'd probably do it the wrong way in everyone's eye's, but it has worked for me in the past, simply put the national frames into the commercial brood box, add a few commercial frames in between, over time the national frames can be moved to the edges and replaced with commercial ones

no need to disturb the bees

 

[Finman]

why do you say wintered bees die off quickly, even in two weeks on here?
According to Ted Hooper over wintered bees could last all summer, at least Q- ones .

I have 50 years experience. That is why I say.

You may do an expetiment. When you have black hive over winter, shange a queen so that new bees in spring will be yellow. When yellow bees start to emerge, old black bees will turn to foragers. As foragers their life is 1-2 weeks.
When colony starts to enlarge, there are no black any more bees in the gang.


And look, wintered bees have allready reared one cycle of brood. Wintered bees have worked quite long time.

 

[Finman]

what Ted Hooper says is true surely they would have time to rear a new queen.

There is not such rule that queenless hive must have time to rear a new queen. It is simple because it has no larva to be reared.

Quite often a hive dwindle away in spring before new bees emerge to save the colony. Reason is then nosema.

What Ted Hooper wrote, and how you want to understand it, is different.

Once I gove a queen to the colony, which was queenless after winter. It was late June then and thre were about litre bees there and their age was 10 months.
But those are not able to rear any more brood and I gove a brame of emerging brood too into the hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

why do you say wintered bees die off quickly, even in two weeks on here?
According to Ted Hooper over wintered bees could last all summer, at least Q- ones he mentions because they have been the last bees to hatch before winter they haven't had to look after brood & so aren't as "burnt out"
This is confusing me now, how long can overwintered bees live? I also keep seeing people with Q- hives being told to reunite with other hives as the bees will die off & wouldn't be able to look after any brood on a frame put in to produce a queen. If what Ted Hooper says is true surely they would have time to rear a new queen.

I don't know of timescale but they will quickly peter off in spring with new brood. because the bees have not had to make wax or rear brood over the winter the wax and hypopharyngeal glands atrophy through non use and although the can be 're-activated' are not as effective as young bees - so the older the bees are the less effective they will be at a) making wax and b) rearing brood (the added strain will soon finish old bees off seriously compromising the colony's chance of survival) - the two things you need them to go into overdrive with a shook swarm. Therefore you should only S/S when you have a strong colony full of young vigorous bees.

 

[Finman]

.
It is well reseached too, that in spring bees may rear some brood by the help of their fat body (protein storage) but if the storage will be exhausted in a short of pollen, bees will be short living. If they get good pollen, they may recover more or less from short of nutritions.

It is same when workers bees emerge, and they have not pollen to eate quickly after emerging, they will not become feeder bees and they will be short living.

Bees' protein contents have bee measured and followed what they do in hives. Old researches.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you need to get rid of the brood???

No.
You can redistribute the brood amongst your other colonies, as you know.
But OP has only one other.

 

[Hachi]

No.
You can redistribute the brood amongst your other colonies, as you know.
But OP has only one other.

Doesn't it depend on why your considering doing a shook swarm?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Of course, but OP seems to be considering a shook to get bees into an alternative format box.
If, however, he was attempting disease control.....say EFB.....then the brood should be sacrificed.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I have 50 years experience. That is why I say.

You may do an expetiment. When you have black hive over winter, shange a queen so that new bees in spring will be yellow. When yellow bees start to emerge, old black bees will turn to foragers. As foragers their life is 1-2 weeks.
When colony starts to enlarge, there are no black any more bees in the gang.


And look, wintered bees have allready reared one cycle of brood. Wintered bees have worked quite long time.

in the uk, temps are in the 20c and we are already on at least the second cycle of new brood here, bees are one 6 to 8 frames of sealed brood, i have some on 10 frames

shook swarms in uk are normally done in the last weeks of march or first weesj in april

last year you told me i was too early putting on pollen substite at end of february that was six week before the predicted UK OSR Flow### timings are differnt in UK, are your bees curently filling supers like mine now are?

The white stuff on the photo of trees just taken miutes ago is not snow it is apple and plum blossom ! The fields is of 200ha of Rape taken 7 days ago, 60cm high and in bud, it is a bit late this year

 

[Finman]

.
What ever you do in UK, it is allways right, because you have such climate. Others are giving patty to brood, and othes are killing brood. No oxalic acid to mites, but kill the brood before summer.

What a mesh out there.

What I have read from these post, quite often there are 4 frames brood, not 8.
Second brood cycle and 4 brood frames.

Impossible to know, what kind of hives you have there, because descriptions are what they are..yes, I have seen much hives during my life.

 

[bontbee]

Do you need to get rid of the brood???

No.
You can redistribute the brood amongst your other colonies, as you know.
But OP has only one other.

Sorry, I was just trying to ask the OP why he felt the need to remove the brood. eg. did he think varroa was high? He has mentioned that the colony is being defensive/aggressive and the combs are tight, but as we know, these are not reasons that need the removal of brood. I agree with MM, Bailey change to changes boxes and re-queening, in due course, to improve the temper!