Saving a hive with laying workers

[Old Boar's Apiary]

Hi there,

My partner and I are completely new to beekeeping. We've been on a one day course, done lots of reading and spoken to experienced beekeepers, and we're about to acquire our first hives this weekend, where we'll be installing them at our local vineyard.

All the hives are fine except for one which has no queen, no queen cells and plenty of laying workers. We're unsure how long they've been queenless, as the person we're getting the bees from has been unable to check the hives himself for a couple of weeks, as he has suddenly become allergic to bee stings.

We've heard it suggested that we could try transferring a couple of spare queen cells from one of the other hives (that has 5) and see if they accept them when they hatch. How exactly do we go about doing this (I think all 4-5 queen cells were on the same frame)? Can we somehow remove them and stick them onto a frame in the hive with the laying workers?

We don't have a young queen to put in, and we don't feel we're experienced enough to try uniting the laying workers with the other (healthy) hives. If we don't try this we'll lose the colony and it would be a real shame. Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks in advance!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

You need to give more details on the other colonies. It sounds like one has swarmed. On that basis, I would split the QCs and that colony and put one part on the site of the laying workers' colony, then shake out the laying workers a fair distance from the other hives. Putting any form of Q or QC in the laying workers' colony will almost certianly lead to the Q or eventual Q being killed.

 

[rook66]

Hi there,

My partner and I are completely new to beekeeping. We've been on a one day course, done lots of reading and spoken to experienced beekeepers, and we're about to acquire our first hives this weekend, where we'll be installing them at our local vineyard.

All the hives are fine except for one which has no queen, no queen cells and plenty of laying workers. We're unsure how long they've been queenless, as the person we're getting the bees from has been unable to check the hives himself for a couple of weeks, as he has suddenly become allergic to bee stings.

We've heard it suggested that we could try transferring a couple of spare queen cells from one of the other hives (that has 5) and see if they accept them when they hatch. How exactly do we go about doing this (I think all 4-5 queen cells were on the same frame)? Can we somehow remove them and stick them onto a frame in the hive with the laying workers?

We don't have a young queen to put in, and we don't feel we're experienced enough to try uniting the laying workers with the other (healthy) hives. If we don't try this we'll lose the colony and it would be a real shame. Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks in advance!

Good info on the problem here

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to...ampaign=Feed:+HoneyBeeSuite+(Honey+Bee+Suite)

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Again it depends what's going on in the other colonies. If one or both have swarmed, giving regular frames of brood might well not be an option. More info please, OP.

 

[Old Boar's Apiary]

Thanks for the link Rook66, that, combined with a PM I got from someone else might have the solution we need

It's all going to be a bit of a rush as the queen cells we're planning on transferring are already capped, so we only have a few days before they hatch, and we're moving the hives this Sunday (we need to as the beekeepers who've been looking after the hives for the guy we're buying from want them gone ASAP).

I'm not sure if the other colonies have swarmed. I'll see if we can find out. What I know for sure is that we have two fully functioning hives with a healthy queen and lots of brood and one with a virgin queen that we can't find, we're hoping we just missed her or that she was out on a mating flight, this is also the hive with at least 5 capped queen cells.

Why would moving the frames of brood not work if the other colonies have swarmed? Do you mean because they'll be too small to spare brood? One hive (the one with the mated, healthy queen) is quite large and probably has brood to spare, would that work?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Why would moving the frames of brood not work if the other colonies have swarmed? Do you mean because they'll be too small to spare brood? One hive (the one with the mated, healthy queen) is quite large and probably has brood to spare, would that work?

First, why "Old Boars"? I am one myself in one sense.

Because a swarmed colony will have a brood break then a new Q hitting her stride. We are just at the threshold of the stage of the year--I would argue the critical stage--where we need to start planning how to take strong mite-free well-provided colonies through winter. So you are running out of time to use a swarmed colony as a donor.

I am a bit confused as to how many laying Qs you have. But that's not important, there is at least one. Your blog talks about acquiring four colonies and one hive. Again, I am a bit confused by that. Sorry. But the laying colony can probably act as a donor. But again, think how many strong colonies you want to / can overwinter.

Where I am REALLY confused is the missing virgin (no-one can spot them) and the QCs. If you tell me of 5 sealed QCs, my first guess is NO Q in residence. Was there an open one, to make you think of virgin queens? If so, she has probably (not necessarily) killed the others. Managing that is the key to managing your stock, and the strand you should be focusing on IMHO; the laying workers are secondary.

 

[Old Boar's Apiary]

Old Boar's is just a play on my other half's surname

Right ok, that explains that then. I've not read as much literature as my OH, if I had I'd probably have known what you meant before.

We have 2 laying queens. We were told there had been a virgin queen in the colony with the QCs a few weeks ago, but as we couldn't see the virgin queen and with the number of QCs in it, as you said, we're assuming she's dead. But with 5 queen cells, we think we can spare a couple to try and save the other hive, it's a reasonable size, so would you say it's worth trying to save by popping in some queen cells and a couple of brood donated from the strong hives?

Obviously you're also right in that we need to ensure the (likely) queenless colony with the 5 QCs is strong, is there anything we can do to help the new queen when she emerges?

As an aside, I need to update that blog post as I made a mistake when talking about which colonies we have ^^" We are going to be owning one hive that contains one colony, the other hives themselves (that house the other 3 colonies) are on loan just in case the guy we're acquiring them from is successful in his desensitisation treatment and he can have them back, at which point we'd just move the frames and our colonies into some new hives which we'll get hold of. It works for us

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Gotcha. With two laying colonies, if there are enough bees in the LW colony and they are not to old, then you can donate frames of (youngest; they need to raise a Q) brood alternately. See below on Q donation.

You need those Q+ colonies on weekly inspection because swarms are still a risk. I would try something like a Weds / Sat split or whatever works for you, taking a frame of brood if they can spare it until the LWs are sorted. (Open brood suppresses the pheromones).

On the most interesting colony, you have to make your own call on the status of the virgin (on the info provided, I put her in the "yeti" class) but whatever you need to leave only ONE QC (we can help provide a basis for choice; a starting point is the one most likely to be from an egg not a larva, if you have any way of figuring that out) or you risk cast swarms. Those are an avoidable disaster. Just pull them down with your hive tool but if you are feeling adventurous, you could donate them (or at least one; I would probably go with two) to the LW colony. Gentle, tricky work, but you'll work out a way. That is only because it is a freebie; this should not be expected to work but you never know.

<ADD> I still like my original plan though; splitting the QCs (one each colony) double the chances of success; the flyers in the LW colony will strengthen the half that goes that side and the rest should sort themselves out. Try and chhose a nice day though, so they have something to bring to the new colony</ADD>

 

[ratcatcher]

we'd just move the frames and our colonies into some new hives which we'll get hold of. It works for us

but you just said you only own one colony, now it sounds like more than one??

takes care of your one hive, put the rest down where your putting them, look after and sort out your own one good hive
if in the future he/she wants to pass the bees on, then you can start worrying about them, but why sort out someone else's mess, only for them in a few weeks/months, say "YAH" it worked, I want my bees back now

 

[Old Boar's Apiary]

@Ratcatcher: All the actual bees/colonies are ours. We own one actual physical hive, we are borrowing the the other 3 physical hives to house the other 3 colonies. If the person's desensitisation doesn't work, we keep the physical hives and pay him for them. If it does work, we give the physical hives back and pop the colonies/frames that were in them into some new hives we'll acquire, if that makes sense. It means he doesn't lose his equipment if he's able to get back into it, and we're quite happy with the whole arrangement.

So actually we're only dealing with our own bees here, not sorting out anyone else's problem

@TryingToLetThemBee - I think we'll go with the assumption you've suggested there, that there is now no queen. Is there any way at all to distinguish between a QC from an egg and a QC from a larvae?

As you said, and we were already thinking this anyway, there's nothing lose by moving a couple of the QCs to the layer hive, if it saves it (combined with adding some brood), we'll be laughing. If not, well at least we tried.

 

[ratcatcher]

cheers, that makes it clearer

 

[oldboar]

but you just said you only own one colony, now it sounds like more than one??

takes care of your one hive, put the rest down where your putting them, look after and sort out your own one good hive
if in the future he/she wants to pass the bees on, then you can start worrying about them, but why sort out someone else's mess, only for them in a few weeks/months, say "YAH" it worked, I want my bees back now

The agreement is that we'll own all the colonies, but only one of the hives - so the bees are ours, but the equipment (apart from one hive) is on loan until next year to give us time to get our own equipment together.

If the desensitization works then the original owner will be having his equipment back and we'll be rehoming the bees in our own hives. If not we'll be purchasing the remainder of the equipment. It's a little finicky I know, but in the circumstances it should work out well for both us and them.

EDIT: Never mind, my other half got there first.

 

[Oscarmonster]

There's a lot of old boars round here!

Is the chap you got the bees off able to mentor you from a distance?
You have jumped in at the deep end and it's sounds like you have a lot going on.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

@TryingToLetThemBee - I think we'll go with the assumption you've suggested there, that there is now no queen. Is there any way at all to distinguish between a QC from an egg and a QC from a larvae?

Sorry: forget I spoke on the egg /larva thing IF we are talking about swarm cells (at or near bottom of frames) as the numbers suggest. That only applies for emergency cells (usually in patch of young brood). In that case, the answer is they can be aged by reference to their neighbours. But I was acting confused; forget me on that point.

On the QC / virgin Q, never assume. BUT you have to make a call and my call would be that there is no Q; you have more info and someone's say so.

So looking at the colony in isolation:

1) Given a Q, removing all QCs is a win; leaving one risks a cast swarm , for a moderate "lose"

2) Given no Q, removing all QCs is a big lose; leaving one hopefully leads to a Q+ colony and should be a "win". On balance then, I would tend to leave one. But as I say, you may have other grounds on which to do the opposite.

But it is not in isolation and splitting the hive but leaving no QC in the part where there MIGHT be a Q is a low-risk strategy because if that fails you still have (hopefully ) a working QC and can reunite when it is clear your other colony is now hopelessly Q-. So that is what I would do, but you are closer (and have 2 heads; better than one...)

 

[oldboar]

There's a lot of old boars round here!

Is the chap you got the bees off able to mentor you from a distance?
You have jumped in at the deep end and it's sounds like you have a lot going on.

Yep, we have him mentoring at a distance and access to a very supportive local BKA - as well as a few local, very experienced beekeepers who've said that they're willing to help out with while we find out feet.

So very much the deep end, and only going to get deeper, but I think we've got armbands at least.

 

[Chris B]

Saving a laying worker colony is a labour of love. Chances of success are slim. The reality is there is you are trying to make something from almost nothing - no queen, no young bees, no brood of any value. The resources you have to pour into it would be better utilized making a brand new nuc from the beginning that has a much greater chance of success. I would shake off the bees from your laying worker hive at the other end of the apiary and let the flyers come back and boost a neighbouring hive - take the beeless hive away for a couple of days and then use it to make a split using one of the queen cells, plus other bees and brood of course. If time is tight due to age of queen cells, then either do the whole thing in one day or else look to buy in a new queen for the split you would do.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Saving a laying worker colony is a labour of love. Chances of success are slim. The reality is there is you are trying to make something from almost nothing - no queen, no young bees, no brood of any value. The resources you have to pour into it would be better utilized making a brand new nuc from the beginning that has a much greater chance of success. I would shake off the bees from your laying worker hive at the other end of the apiary and let the flyers come back and boost a neighbouring hive - take the beeless hive away for a couple of days and then use it to make a split using one of the queen cells, plus other bees and brood of course. If time is tight due to age of queen cells, then either do the whole thing in one day or else look to buy in a new queen for the split you would do.

Again, +1.

PS: splitting the QCs is going to be delicate work, as I said, but you're working with nature not against it, so they'll forgive the odd bit of gaffer tape etc and it sounds like you have good help on hand. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[ratcatcher]

here's how I added a QC to a queen less hive

http://youtu.be/dRDccG2dyk4

worked fine, just took around 35lb of honey from them

 

[Bosleeu]

Same happened to me, I had laying workers but not enough time to shake them all out. There was a queencell from another hive spare and I just quickly put it on one of the frames. Never thought it would work. A week later I carried the hive all the way to the other side of the garden to shake it out, only to discover the bees were calm, the laying had stopped and the cells were all cleared out. On the third frame there was the lovely young virgin.

Next time I will check first before I carry a hive so far. You never know.

 

[Old Boar's Apiary]

Thanks for all the advice guys!

@Ratcatcher - great vid

@Bosleeu - Good to hear that someone had success with it, there's a small chance it might work for us, we'll just keep our fingers crossed!