Running Mike Palmer's system on Nationals

[Michael Palmer]

I don't understand what you are all worrying about. Langs or nationals or whatever, Mike says its whats in the box not the box, so just get your tools out and make a few supers.

We followed Mikes ideas this year with good results. The dividers are all thin ply and we placed the brood from other colonies either side of the divider with the stores on the edges. It did not make one jot whether the frames were inline or not, the bees just moved up and used them. The divider is the centre of the brood nest and we have noticed that the whole box acted like a normal national brood box with them keeping stores on the outer frames on both sides.

We have over 65 nucs overwintering ready for the spring, all made using this method, and we did not have to touch our production colonies.

Well done Tim. Just wait till you see how fast these little colonies build up come spring. Get ready.

What you say about the equipment you use is true. It's what's inside the box that counts, so use what is available to you.

One thing to consider. When I first started this program of wintering my new stocks in nuc boxes, I wintered them on top of production colonies. Two nucs above the crown board in a double nuc box, and the production colony below. The idea was to aid the nuclei with added heat from the cluster below. This was during the Acarine invasion our bees suffered in the 90s. Well, often enough the production colony below would succumb and the nucs would be alive and healthy and would re-stock the apiary losses. Sometimes the production colony and one of the nuclei would die but the remaining nuc would be nice. So that got me thinking.

Is successful wintering of nucleus colonies really about added head coming from the production colony? Do the nucs survive in a double nuc box because they share some amount of heat through the central divider? I wondered.

So a few years ago I set up a number of double nuc boxes with only one side occupied. These nucs were given the four frame super I use, but the other side remained empty...empty nuc box with empty super above. All survived well.

What I'm saying here is don't worry about transferred heat. Construct your nuc boxes to fit the woodenware in the rest of your apiary. Thin divider so you can add an extra frame to each side, or thick divider to properly adjust bee space on each side of the divider...it really doesn't matter. It's way more important that the little colonies are healthy, have a cluster of young bees that fills the cavity for winter, and there is sufficient, properly ripened feed for winter.

 

[Little John]

I don't understand what you are all worrying about.

I'm not sure who's worrying (?) - the only reason I started this thread was in the hope of discovering a workable method of preserving correct frame spacing in order to prevent extra work later-on. I think I've solved that now.

My own interest in this technique is principally to run the boxes as brood factories, and as they'll be running like that for several months it would be good to avoid the formation of burr comb.

LJ

 

[MuswellMetro]

For anyone planning on over-wintering nucs, Mike Palmer gave a very good talk on this subject during the 2013 National Honey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If possible I'd like to settle on one of the above solutions before the New Year, in order to make the necessary kit before the season commences - so would very much appreciate hearing any opinions which others may have on this particular topic.

LJ

LJ, good discussion in your post, food for thought

i have a lot of flat pack supers and a few OSB rose boxes which i want to turn into mating nuc,s but rather than split into four small "square mating nuc with mini frames, i intend to split them into 3 sn4 frame mating nucs, but again although the OSB with 9m side take 12 frames easliy it like your nuc they dont split easly into 4 or 3 mating nucs, so going for 4+3+4 frames

they will also sit on top of a hive for warmth, though i doubt i will overwinter in them and will look to split with division boards and new floor a 14x12 into three frames nucs, though looking at dimensions i have notice a super plus OSB box=14x12 depth

 

[Little John]

so going for 4+3+4 frames

Yes indeed - the National size presents something of a challenge when it comes to division. I also chose a 4+3+4 format for a timing box I made last year, and which I intend using this coming season.

When copying Mike P's system over to the National, the half-size mating-nuc boxes don't present any problems, as the half-sized frames (which run cross-wise) can simply be made to whatever size fits the boxes.

But - as you say - the half-width nucs (with their full-sized frames running longitudinally) - do pose a problem with division if frame-spacing is to be maintained.
There's also an added problem if making these boxes from pallet wood, as pallet planks come in various thicknesses. I don't own a thicknesser, and using a router to thickness a large number of planks really isn't on - but I eventually came up with the following scheme, which I'll mention here in case it helps anybody in a similar position.

The idea being to make the inner walls from the thinnest planks available, with the outer walls being made from the thickest available planks - with battens (planed to size) being fixed to the outer wall at top and bottom to bring the total width to 460mm, such that the footprint of two 1/2 boxes positioned together is maintained at 460x460.

I can't see any reason why this method shouldn't work ok.

"Famous last words ..."

LJ

 

[Eyeman]

How did you guys get on with dividing up you boxes?
Tried the simple division of national deep into 2. No problem so long as both 'nucs' were queen right. Didn't like not being able to manipulate each nuc separately.
So decided to make 2 separate nucs from an old national deep by cutting a section out of the center of the deep equal to twice the width of the plywood sides. In this case I had some 18mm ply spare so cut 36mm out of the center of the deep.


When the ply side is nailed and glued in place both nucs are 230mm wide and can be used separately:


Or pushed together and used under a standard national roof.


If you need to move the whole unit some cheap G-clamps hold everything securely and also minimizes any gap between the nucs when over-wintering


You can also add national shallows, deeps or ekes for insulation


Running these 'brood factories' allowed me to keep my honey producing hives 'topped up' with bees during a very challenging season. You also have a spare queen when you really need one!
Without them I'm sure the honey yield would have been dismal.
Alec

 

[johnogaunt]

My own solution has been to make half national 6 frame nucs. The frame hanger ends are normal national and the long walls are simply 9mm wbp ply.
i.e. 2*9mm + 6 *35mm normal brood DN5 national frames. (228 close enough to 230 mm!)
The floor is divided with a batten to meet a vaselined 9mm rebated division board that separates a normal national brood box into two ground floor nucs provided the bottom bee space in the wall is blocked each side.
Queen excluders can have a simple 8mm frame and central batten.
Crown boards and ekes and swarm boards are half size. Rooves normal.
If you are worried about heat loss on the outer long sides either rely on the extra frame and shared heat of the inner thin walls or tie on polystyrene walls deep enough for the two stories but below roof eaves or overlapping the floor.
A quick release hive strap works wonders.
Another tip is to use sheets of polythene on top of the frames with bottom bee space.This will be propolized down though still easy to remove.This has the advantage that as in a hollow tree there is little or no loss of air upwards between frames containing the cluster in winter and my hives have overwintered well even with open mesh floors provided that hive stands are protected from the wind.
Fondant and supplement feeding is achieved by cutting an "n" shaped flap in the polythene inner cover which can be temporarily taped open to allow access to fondant in a 500mm eke.
Once spring is under way 1:1 syrup is fed using small contact feeders or slit baggies .
Once you are used to the system the upper nucs are simply up ended onto the opposite side hive so that the cover does not need removing for inspection from below unless charged queen cells are seen or you want to swap frames around.
I aim to have 5 frames with brood in each of the ground floor divisions by start of August these continue expanding up through one or two brood depth super stories used for winter storesand bee volume.
If you supplement the stores artificially you will have to keep removing frames of brood right into September. Good for building up your production hives and reducing the risk of absconding late in the season.