Rose hives

[Rolandiere]

If you overwinter on a single OSB, is it best to add the second box above or below?

 

[user 20297]

If you overwinter on a single OSB, is it best to add the second box above or below?

That's an interesting question that applies to any system of beekeeping. Based on what I have seen and read about bees' natural habits and having been influenced by the approach taken by some less intensive beekeeping systems from other countries, I have already decided to see what happens when the first additional box of the year is placed below the winter box.
In Tim Rowe's book he assumes the bees are overwintered in two boxes and says the new box should be sandwiched between them.

 

[fian]

The osb size was calculated from the oskman configuration (1 body 216 + 1 rise 140) adapted to the bs metric, such as winter minimum and/or summer maximum expansion.
Therefore, under its original configuration, it should work with a two-body nest. That being said, the discussion about whether the first rise will be higher or lower must address why and when you want it.
Superior
Arranged the nest and the excluder, the object of its location is (honey, swarm control, treatment)
lower
Below the entrance, the bees will accumulate pollen and if you separate with an excluder the foragers do not interfere with the brood nest or press the queen against the upper excluder.
Above the entrance, more space for the queen.

 

[user 20297]

The osb size was calculated from the oskman configuration (1 body 216 + 1 rise 140) adapted to the bs metric, such as winter minimum and/or summer maximum expansion.
Therefore, under its original configuration, it should work with a two-body nest. That being said, the discussion about whether the first rise will be higher or lower must address why and when you want it.
Superior
Arranged the nest and the excluder, the object of its location is (honey, swarm control, treatment)
lower
Below the entrance, the bees will accumulate pollen and if you separate with an excluder the foragers do not interfere with the brood nest or press the queen against the upper excluder.
Above the entrance, more space for the queen.

When I say place the second box below the first I mean above the entrance and with no excluder used. I don't use the "Rose" method, so a third box would be placed on top. By then, if the queen appeared to have enough space I might use a excluder below that box.

 

[Rolandiere]

That's an interesting question that applies to any system of beekeeping. Based on what I have seen and read about bees' natural habits and having been influenced by the approach taken by some less intensive beekeeping systems from other countries, I have already decided to see what happens when the first additional box of the year is placed below the winter box.
In Tim Rowe's book he assumes the bees are overwintered in two boxes and says the new box should be sandwiched between them.

I feel that the best option is to place the new OSB below the single overwintered box, preferably using drawn foundation. My reasoning is that if placed above, the bees may tend to move stores up into the new top OSB wasting time and energy. As I have several colonies in single OSBs I may try both options. Unfortunately in Tim's book he gives no info on this but says he winters quite a few colonies in a single OSB.

 

[Ian123]

If you overwinter on a single OSB, is it best to add the second box above or below?

Personally I’d suggest putting your new box on top of the old, in general I’ve found they’ll expand upwards faster than dropping down into the bottom box. Adding a drawn comb or combs if you have them above the cluster will get them up faster. If the bottom box is well filled with bees a frame with sealed brood placed again directly above the brood area works well, drop your spare empty frame to the bottom box and beside any brood frames so your not splitting the brood in 2 areas. But you will have to judge if the colony is large enough to do this or when conditions allow!

 

[Rolandiere]

Personally I’d suggest putting your new box on top of the old, in general I’ve found they’ll expand upwards faster than dropping down into the bottom box. Adding a drawn comb or combs if you have them above the cluster will get them up faster. If the bottom box is well filled with bees a frame with sealed brood placed again directly above the brood area works well, drop your spare empty frame to the bottom box and beside any brood frames so your not splitting the brood in 2 areas. But you will have to judge if the colony is large enough to do this or when conditions allow!

Thanks, sounds a good option.

 

[magor]

bees do no move stores(sealed honey....) but consume, also stores and more ussual un arc of honey during a flow operates like a QX and so bees ll store nectar above and brood cant expand up but pushed down but when a hive is on brood rearing (like spring) and there is no strong nectar flow outside then may bees consume that hiney arc and let brood expand and above .........it always depends on nectar flow - brood rear - pollen flow

also if undraw comb better sounds place new box above to draw it(thus taking advantage of the temperature) but if drawn combs and pollen flow is on then may better is to place it below for pollen store

 

[fian]

When I say place the second box below the first I mean above the entrance and with no excluder used. I don't use the "Rose" method, so a third box would be placed on top. By then, if the queen appeared to have enough space I might use a excluder below that box.

He was talking about the possibilities and the motive behind the drive.
Rose's method has the new box in the center.
Reason, more placed than in another position that in the long run is more bees / more harvest. the downside is that you can cool down the existing nest by pulling it apart if the bees are not enough. Recommendation to use already stretched paintings and not foundation.
The reason for the excluder at the bottom is if a Renson drive is applied.

 

[ericbeaumont]

if placed above, the bees may tend to move stores up into the new top OSB wasting time and energy

If spring nectar pours in bees will aim to put it above, but if the top box is full of brood, congestion will result. It is likely to take more time to draw the box under than fill the box above, by which time they may decide the job is done, ignore the foundation and plan to swarm.

If the new box is put on top bees will often use it as a super, defeating the object of giving new brood space to produce a strong colony, yet avert swarming. On the other hand, if nectar fails to pour in during a cold spring, the void above may lose heat and set back colony development.

Try this instead: take from the full bottom box perhaps three or four frames of openish brood and put them in the centre of the new top box. Condense and centralise the remaining bottom box brood frames, and add foundation frames to the flanks of both boxes; reassemble the hive.

By this method you will balance the need for both vertical and horizontal brood and stores expansion. When these two boxes are approaching fulness (and there may easily be two supers on by this time) add another in-between, but put in the centre of this third box several frames of open brood as before.

Pretty soon an expanding colony will work to fill the gaps rather than consider swarming and by mid-summer will be very strong, which is what they and you need to make the most of the main flow.

PS: if you wish to build a reserve of good clean brood frames, use a brood box as a super, especially on a strong spring flow such as OSR. Extract this and any surplus taken selectively from the outside of the two broods. Protect from wax moth, as these combs are a valuable resource for splits and so on.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If spring nectar pours in bees will aim to put it above, but if the top box is full of brood, congestion will result. It is likely to take more time to draw the box under than fill the box above, by which time they may decide the job is done, ignore the foundation and plan to swarm.

 

[Rolandiere]

If spring nectar pours in bees will aim to put it above, but if the top box is full of brood, congestion will result. It is likely to take more time to draw the box under than fill the box above, by which time they may decide the job is done, ignore the foundation and plan to swarm.

If the new box is put on top bees will often use it as a super, defeating the object of giving new brood space to produce a strong colony, yet avert swarming. On the other hand, if nectar fails to pour in during a cold spring, the void above may lose heat and set back colony development.

Try this instead: take from the full bottom box perhaps three or four frames of openish brood and put them in the centre of the new top box. Condense and centralise the remaining bottom box brood frames, and add foundation frames to the flanks of both boxes; reassemble the hive.

By this method you will balance the need for both vertical and horizontal brood and stores expansion. When these two boxes are approaching fulness (and there may easily be two supers on by this time) add another in-between, but put in the centre of this third box several frames of open brood as before.

Pretty soon an expanding colony will work to fill the gaps rather than consider swarming and by mid-summer will be very strong, which is what they and you need to make the most of the main flow.

PS: if you wish to build a reserve of good clean brood frames, use a brood box as a super, especially on a strong spring flow such as OSR. Extract this and any surplus taken selectively from the outside of the two broods. Protect from wax moth, as these combs are a valuable resource for splits and so on.

Thanks for your ideas. Seems to be a good possible option.

 

[ericbeaumont]

good possible option

Yes, there is always more than one way to solve a beekeeping question.

Ian gave a similar option, using one frame of brood to draw the bees up into the new box. I prefer several frames as the greater body of bees above will maintain a compact warm nest, as it changes from a pumpkin in one box to a rugby ball in two.

 

[Swarm]

I agree with Eric, keep the bees looking up.