Reading wet brood combs

[johnogaunt]

We had a very late start and low temperatures here in NW England for 2015(until end of May).Flowering was nearly 1 month behind normal for forage.
I noticed that pollen/bee bread stores were lower than expected from end of February onwards.
From my previous grafting experience the newly emerged day 3 larve were often dry,where one would expect a pool of jelly around the larva . There were plenty of sealed available stores from over winter or at least I moved capped frames to be next to one side of the brood nest and empty comb the other.
Should I have been giving pollen substitute from mid February onwards or would this not have been enough to raise successful brood with no external pollen availability.
I was scared the lack of natural pollen could have worsened the starvation if pollen substitute caused unjustified brood rearing before weather improvements were in any form reliable.
Does anyone have a more reliable method for guessing protein deprivation
other than my search for brood food in hopefully wet brood areas.
What do commercial beekeepers do when pollen does not appear or is protein supplementation always the best way to go whatever the season.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Should I have been giving pollen substitute from mid February onwards or would this not have been enough to raise successful brood with no external pollen availability.
I was scared the lack of natural pollen could have worsened the starvation if pollen substitute caused unjustified brood rearing before weather improvements were in any form reliable.

I feed pollen sub every March/April until natural pollen is available. I don't know the timing for you. February is too early here. It certainly helps with early brood rearing...especially in years when the bees run out of Autumn stored pollen, and aren't able to gather fresh. Brood rearing shuts down right when you don't want it to...when the winter bees are dying off and the colony needs emerging bees to replace the losses.

Of course with brood rearing comes the need for honey stores. You must keep your eyes on the food level and feed if necessary.

 

[johnogaunt]

Is brood food an indicator for feeding at any time

I feed pollen sub every March/April until natural pollen is available. I don't know the timing for you. February is too early here. It certainly helps with early brood rearing...especially in years when the bees run out of Autumn stored pollen, and aren't able to gather fresh. Brood rearing shuts down right when you don't want it to...when the winter bees are dying off and the colony needs emerging bees to replace the losses.

Of course with brood rearing comes the need for honey stores. You must keep your eyes on the food level and feed if necessary.

Thanks for your quick reply but still wondering how much value I can put on reading brood food stores in young larvae.

 

[beeno]

Hi John, It is an interesting question to which I don't know the answer. Like you I have seen worker cells with small larvae and a minute amount of brood food and was told that was enough for the time being as they top it up. I have also been amazed in my own hive how much brood food was in worker cells, and was told it was because I had an abundance of nurse bees at the time. Lack of pollen will lead to poor quality workers and drones, that also live for a shorter time. However, winter bees can rear some brood for a short time by using the protein stores in their fat bodies. In my locale I seem to have some pollen more or less all year, but one year there were no pollen stores at all in one hive at Christmas, they still did OK. I do let them build up naturally. Surely, you have some pollen in the NW or are you anxious to chase early OSR?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Lack of pollen will lead to poor quality workers and drones
Mmmm. I've been beekeeping for only a few years and I must admit I've never seen that. My bees stop rearing brood completely when there is no pollen and resume when there is some.

 

[beeno]

Lack of pollen will lead to poor quality workers and drones
Mmmm. I've been beekeeping for only a few years and I must admit I've never seen that. My bees stop rearing brood completely when there is no pollen and resume when there is some.

And all the shades of grey in between. How would you as a beek determine the longevity of a batch of worker bees or the quality of a drones reproductive ability? We would only notice scrub queens.

 

[Erichalfbee]

And all the shades of grey in between. How would you as a beek determine the longevity of a batch of worker bees or the quality of a drones reproductive ability? We would only notice scrub queens.

OK....you've got me there.
I was just talking about pollen availability.
I'll throw it back....how might you guide me to?

 

[johnogaunt]

Hi beeno;
[/QUOTE]I seem to have some pollen more or less all year, but one year there were no pollen stores at all in one hive at Christmas, they still did OK. I do let them build up naturally. Surely, you have some pollen in the NW or are you anxious to chase early OSR?[/QUOTE]

My own interest at present is for expanding overwintered nucs so that I can get some good quality early drones for Queen rearing. 2015 had a disatrous early start as far as pollen supply went and I want to be forewarned for 2016.
It appears both number of drone larvae and amount of brood food are closely related to protein supply in the hive,be it winter bee fat bodies as in your case or if pollen supply is available ,in fair weather ,pollen foraging is increased if levels drop.
From 2015 experience protein supplement did appear to increase drone rearing and brood food.

 

[beeno]

Hi beeno;

I seem to have some pollen more or less all year, but one year there were no pollen stores at all in one hive at Christmas, they still did OK. I do let them build up naturally. Surely, you have some pollen in the NW or are you anxious to chase early OSR?[/QUOTE]

My own interest at present is for expanding overwintered nucs so that I can get some good quality early drones for Queen rearing. 2015 had a disatrous early start as far as pollen supply went and I want to be forewarned for 2016.
It appears both number of drone larvae and amount of brood food are closely related to protein supply in the hive,be it winter bee fat bodies as in your case or if pollen supply is available ,in fair weather ,pollen foraging is increased if levels drop.
From 2015 experience protein supplement did appear to increase drone rearing and brood food.[/QUOTE]

Hi John, There are many threads on this forum about pollen patties. From what I have said you know that I don't use them. Good luck for 2016. My Mahonia in full flower now and some Cherry Laurels are in bud too. Crazy season.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How would you as a beek determine the longevity of a batch of worker bees or the quality of a drones reproductive ability?

So why make the comment

Lack of pollen will lead to poor quality workers and drones, that also live for a shorter time.

When clearly you haven't a clue

 

[Hivemaker.]

but one year there were no pollen stores at all in one hive at Christmas, they still did OK.

They cover stores of pollen with honey, so were there there no stores of any kind in the combs.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Lack of pollen will lead to poor quality workers and drones

Mmmmm
Beeno might have something there

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0121731

Workers reared in pollen-stressed colonies were lighter and shorter lived than nestmates reared with adequate access to pollen. Proportionally fewer stressed workers were observed foraging and those who did forage started foraging sooner, foraged for fewer days, and were more likely to die after only a single day of foraging. Pollen-stressed workers were also less likely to waggle dance than their unstressed counterparts and, if they danced, the information they conveyed about the location of food was less precise. These performance deficits may escalate if long-term pollen limitation prevents stressed foragers from providing sufficiently for developing workers. Furthermore, the effects of brief pollen shortages reported here mirror the effects of other environmental stressors that limit worker access to nutrients

 

[beeno]

They cover stores of pollen with honey, so were there there no stores of any kind in the combs.

All I can say with hindsight is that I knew where the pollen stores were when I put them to bed and those frames were empty cells. I have noted two weeks of stores left those would have been honey stores and no brood. I see wet pollen stores all the time. This was 2013 on 28/12 and it is the hive I open every year to determine whether my bees are likely to have brood or not for OA treatment. Do please show me some pictures of what you are talking about.