Double brood decision

[SWEET]

No.

It's not your fault you were taught rubbish.

PH

Thanks, but I've not been taught anything, just going on the experience of the past 3 years and all the hives have done fine and produced plenty of suppers etc

One thing I've noted, there are several answers to most questions so hard to get to the real information, I'll stick some extra boxes on and see what happens.

Many thanks for the info, reason I joined the thread, the Swienty BB did seem small so was looking into the Lang version, but thought might as well stick another BB on (under) and the search brought me here.

 

[masterBK]

I have been using double brood nationals for about 50 years and at one time had a role in the BBKA organisation for about 19 years as correspondence course sec and a member of the exam board and don't recollect anyone in a position of influence apart from a few BIBBA members pushing single brood Nationals.

 

[eltalia]

(edit)
... the Swienty BB did seem small so was looking into the Lang version, but thought might as well stick another BB on (under) and the search brought me here.

You were on the best track, for bees.
It may take some time along with a mix of frustrations to have
you revisit FD 10frm Langs 0r you might just choose to work
around all that, as many do... even here in Aussie.
For some it all becomes that infamous adage "there is no right
nor wrong".

/taps nose/

Bill

 

[SWEET]

Regards overwintering, do you all leave the extra box in-place?

 

[eltalia]

Regards overwintering, do you all leave the extra box in-place?

When using little boxes or 8frm Lang there is no choice but to.
That there is much of the problem in using small real estate for
a broodchamber - as said tho'... many will neverrr be persuaded
otherwise.

/shrugs/

Bill

 

[Beefriendly]

apart from a few BIBBA members pushing single brood Nationals.

Whatever happened to Roger....he seems to have retired from all forum life

 

[Beefriendly]

Regards overwintering, do you all leave the extra box in-place?

Depends, no fixed answer.
The size of your colony going into winter will determine if you reduce to 1 brood box, go brood and nadir a super or use 2 brood boxes.

It's a decision you have to take.

 

[SWEET]

Depends, no fixed answer.
The size of your colony going into winter will determine if you reduce to 1 brood box, go brood and nadir a super or use 2 brood boxes.

It's a decision you have to take.

Doing some reading (loads of threads/web), it seems most just leave *as is* regardless, the cluster will keep themselves warm with plenty of stores in the boxes etc.

 

[Beefriendly]

Seems you already know your answer.

The problem is when you have a small colony overwinter in double brood, the cluster or warmth will usually be found at the top of the second brood box in very cold conditions, leaving a large cold area of the second brood box that bees need to traverse through to get outside/toilet/water gathering to dilute stores etc.
Fine when they leave.... but when they return somewhat chilled and at the end of their flying time for those temperatures they need to get back to warmth ASAP. But now they they still have to traverse a cold brood box to get back to the "warmth" of the hive. Many don't make it that far.
In cold winters over wintering in too much space kills a lot of returning bees Even worse in wooden hives.
Seems from your readings that the herd goes with leave "as is".
Or as we call it do nothing no thinking beekeeping.

 

[SWEET]

Interesting and thanks for the input; the people stating leave as-is were the commercial/professional types (few) but i'm reading a mixed bag from hobby beekeepers, some very detailed posts with heat data etc arguing the case, all interesting stuff.

Would the bees really struggle moving a small distance though a box when they have flown around outside fine? - ref Ron Brown Seasoned Guide (Ch8 page 144) air temp outside the cluster is the same as the external temps so they don't heat the boxes anyway (4 watts for a decent cluster), thermal imaging shows this nicely.

I've not set my mind on anything, i'll prob try both and see what happens and keep reading everything.

 

[Beefriendly]

Would the bees really struggle moving a small distance though a box when they have flown around outside fine?

When it's very cold and they stop flying they lose their own personal heat source...thoracic flight muscles.

My suspicion is that pros want colonies surviving the winter and play the numbers game, whereas us hobbyists want them to survive with maximum bee numbers.
What the long term effect is ...who knows.

 

[SWEET]

When it's very cold and they stop flying they lose their own personal heat source...thoracic flight muscles.

Ted Hooper mentions this in Bees & Honey - but its only an issue if they remain still and their core drops to below 8c.

Also mentions clusters recorded in air temps of -28, impressive indeed.

 

[Beefriendly]

Ted Hooper mentions this in Bees & Honey - but its only an issue if they remain still and their core drops to below 8c.

Also mentions clusters recorded in air temps of -28, impressive indeed.

I think you are confusing clustering temps and thoracic movement with the scenario of a lone bee returning to the hive in cold conditions and having to now "walk" upstairs to the warmth.

All I do is judge the size of the overwintering quarters by the size/strength of the colony. As I said in my original post there is no one answer fits all.

 

[SWEET]

Not at all , understand they use TM to generate heat enabling them to fly around in freezing temps, but surely they don't lose all that heat from entrance to cluster walking up a frame.

How would they get from cluster to outside in the first place?, or maybe they don't and die.

 

[Beefriendly]

Not at all , understand they use TM to generate heat enabling them to fly around in freezing temps, but surely they don't lose all that heat from entrance to cluster walking up a frame.

How would they get from cluster to outside in the first place?, or maybe they don't and die.

Basic biology...
1, If they are in a cluster then they aren't going flying...LOL
2. How long can they fly in winter conditions before they die from heat loss?
This should tell you winter flying is extremely perilous for bees as they cannot fly for long without dying of cold. despite flapping their thoracic muscles
Read Seeleys paper about water gathering at 4C...
They won't fly below 4C and when too cold go into a stupor/torpor....there is a time window they can be warmed up and revived in but laying inert on an open mesh floor is about as far removed from further survival as can be...
You can see how many don't even make it back into the hive alive by looking at the dead bees on the ground around the hive entrance...it's a close run thing getting water and getting back to the relative safety of the hive heat....
In many cold countries they often use top entrances to help avoid this problem.

 

[SWEET]

Basic biology...
1, If they are in a cluster then they aren't going flying...LOL
2. How long can they fly in winter conditions before they die from heat loss?
This should tell you winter flying is extremely perilous for bees as they cannot fly for long without dying of cold. despite flapping their thoracic muscles
Read Seeleys paper about water gathering at 4C...
They won't fly below 4C and when too cold go into a stupor/torpor....there is a time window they can be warmed up and revived in but laying inert on an open mesh floor is about as far removed from further survival as can be...
You can see how many don't even make it back into the hive alive by looking at the dead bees on the ground around the hive entrance...it's a close run thing getting water and getting back to the relative safety of the hive heat....
In many cold countries they often use top entrances to help avoid this problem.

1. You misread, if they have to travel from cluster in top box and down lower box cold frames they would never get out the entrance in first place (as would freeze to death), there is a paper - The Hive and the Honey Bee (2015) by Currie, Spivak, and Reuter (p. 631) mentions that an arm of the winter cluster may move toward the entrance during the day and back at night, interesting and might point to how they manage this issues.

2. Unsure but i’ll check into it

Thanks, i’ll check Seeleys paper. The top entrance idea is interesting and something else to read.

The feral hive I cut from an oak last year was around 2 foot from the entrance deep inside the log.

Can see why people just leave them as-is and head to the pub ha!

 

[Ian123]

I just adjust the boxes to fit the bees if they aren’t filling a double then reduce. I must admit I think boxes packed with bees winter better and a cluster next to the front door far reduces any issues with pests be it wasps or mice.

 

[Millet]

I just adjust the boxes to fit the bees if they aren’t filling a double then reduce. I must admit I think boxes packed with bees winter better and a cluster next to the front door far reduces any issues with pests be it wasps or mice.

If i want to pedantic we have no wapses for winter bees to play with..

 

[eltalia]

When it's very cold and they stop flying they lose their own personal heat source...thoracic flight muscles.

My suspicion is that pros want colonies surviving the winter and play the numbers game, whereas us hobbyists want them to survive with maximum bee numbers.
What the long term effect is ...who knows.

Dunno that it is so helpfull - in deciding wintering strategy - to cling to a binary
arguement? All maybe follow as close as possible the lesser (bees) higher success
rate path then using stores to rebuild in days prior to the Spring???

As to the fly no fly point made in respect of skeleton heat it should be kept in mind
rarity is not a base line for building a Plan. Best outcomes are reached in not having reason
for bees to fly in let's say "dubious" conditions.

Bill

 

[Ian123]

If i want to pedantic we have no wapses for winter bees to play with..

Good job your not being pedantic then, very common to still see was into late nov/dec rather dependant on hard frosts......and the bees in the hives then are....? Are not nov/dec classed as winter in terms of hive set up.