Question for the Honey Judges please

[Poly Hive]

On the bench there are two identical cut combs. Both of equal quality and the only difference is one is drone cell and the other worker. Note there is NO other difference, weight, cappings and taste are identical.

Given equal quality would you give first to the worker or drone on purely that basis and why?

PH

 

[B+.]

On the bench there are two identical cut combs. Both of equal quality and the only difference is one is drone cell and the other worker. Note there is NO other difference, weight, cappings and taste are identical.

Given equal quality would you give first to the worker or drone on purely that basis and why?

PH

I'm not a honey judge but I assume there is a specification which defines what is allowed. What does that say?
I would have thought drone cells would hold slightly more honey so there'd be fewer cells. There would probably be more leakage from the cut edges because of this and it might even be smaller if the weight was identical (filled deeper). I would prefer worker comb over drone.

 

[Teemore]

I will ask and post the reply....

 

[Teemore]

Looks like a case of ask two judges, get two answers....

The better reasoned of the two responses indicates a preference for the drone comb, the reason being that there will be a greater weight of honey in the drone comb.

I do not recollect reading a honey schedule that stipulated drone cell or worker cell for cut comb or sections. It has always been at the discretion of the exhibitor.

 

[Poly Hive]

Actually the "more reasoned" I would strongly argue with on that basis, ie that their would be a greater weight.

However I would remind all that the question said all things were equal INCLUDING weight, and it was the appearance that was the question.

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't think drone comb shows very well - especially if the honey is darkish - it doesn't show the white cappings very well - a lot of other more seasoned showers agree on that point although, saying that, a piece of cut comb on drone foundation won one of the classes in the Royal Welsh this year.
But saying that, a lot of experienced showers, and the judge's steward also agreed, going by a lot of decisions in this years show that said judge needed a boot up the backside!

 

[masterBK]

I have been judging major shows around the UK for several decades. Drone cutcomb can look very nice if you have bees that cap it well with white cappings but often bees are reluctant to fully cap drone cells leaving too many unsealed ones (invariably on the lower surface of the entry !) I wish shows stipulated the use of fully transparent cut comb containers as this would speed up the judging of this class and lower the risk of the judge getting sticky when emptying out the piece from the white containers to examine the lower surface to see if fully capped etc and gauge how much liquid packing has been added!
One major factor favouring Drone cut comb takes into account the consumer. They get more honey per mouthful and less indigestible beeswax to chew and spit out (or swallow) compared with worker comb.
Many beekeepers use thin worker foundation starters and the cutcomb pieces often have worker cells (from the starter) on one side with drone cells making up the rest of the piece in the natural comb added on to the starter by the bees .

Generally the cutcomb classes have only a few entries and the winners usually stand out a mile from the others as the standards in this class can be very poor with underweight entries, granulation, ragged edges,damage, travel staining, not drained sufficiently with too much runny honey (= packing to meet the weight?). At a show the other week one entry had a live earwig in an empty cell (on the under side of the piece). Some years ago came across some perfect looking cutcombs in a show. The honey was colourless, no flavour and no honey aroma. I strongly suspected they were produced by sugar feeding the bees with gallons of syrup. Have even come across wax cappings added by the exhibitor to cover up empty cells to and improve the appearance (although this was in comb for extraction class). Also come across examples with wire present, live wax moth larvae together with their silk and characteristic faeces present. However don't see Braula tunnels in comb surfaces these days in mainland shows as Varroa treatments have more or less wiped them out (still found in varroa free IOM and scottish islands)

 

[Michael Palmer]

I wish shows stipulated the use of fully transparent cut comb containers as this would speed up the judging of this class and lower the risk of the judge getting sticky when emptying out the piece from the white containers to examine the lower surface to see if fully capped etc and gauge how much liquid packing has been added!

I agree. When I entered cut comb in the national, I couldn't believe the standard cut comb container was opaque, only clear on the top. You can't see the comb structure which, in my opinion, should be part of the judging. Also, there was too much liquid in the containers, but I guess that's not important since you can't see it anyway...not!

I noted that the first place entry was cracked, and wasn't flat. Second had a drip of bee poo running down the capping. I entered in our US standard cut comb container with a clear cover, but got DQ'd after receiving permission to use the container. Oh well, it is what it is. One thing...the rules now say "Standard English container with a clear cover".

 

[Poly Hive]

Thanks Master BK. Exactly what I was after.

BTW only honey I have ever spat out was CC which had been produced in seemingly a freshly creosoted super... it actually burnt my mouth. Many years ago mind you but one I'll not forget.

PH

 

[Davelin]

BBKA Guide for Judges:

Cut Comb Honey

"New thin worker foundation is preferred to drone foundation"

 

[Swarm]

I agree. When I entered cut comb in the national, I couldn't believe the standard cut comb container was opaque, only clear on the top. You can't see the comb structure which, in my opinion, should be part of the judging. Also, there was too much liquid in the containers, but I guess that's not important since you can't see it anyway...not!

I noted that the first place entry was cracked, and wasn't flat. Second had a drip of bee poo running down the capping. I entered in our US standard cut comb container with a clear cover, but got DQ'd after receiving permission to use the container. Oh well, it is what it is. One thing...the rules now say "Standard English container with a clear cover".

A judge refused to judge the cut comb class at one of our association shows because he could not examine comb in an opaque container. Mine was in a clear container, dead on 8ozs, sharply cut, with a level face of pearly white cappings and he even commented on the quality of it's presentation.
I then had the pleasure of watching him hand out beautiful rosettes and certificates for the other classes, even third place in the honey cake class!
That was the last time I'll ever enter.

 

[Poly Hive]

I had a whole "Shop Display" disqualified for being a quarter inch too big.

*shrug*

Won the best in show next time around.

Keep after it and show them.

PH

 

[Teemore]

Actually the "more reasoned" I would strongly argue with on that basis, ie that their would be a greater weight.

However I would remind all that the question said all things were equal INCLUDING weight, and it was the appearance that was the question.

PH

Sorry PH. I was insufficiently clear in my reply but masterBK picked up the ball and clarified what I intended to convey:

"One major factor favouring Drone cut comb takes into account the consumer. They get more honey per mouthful and less indigestible beeswax to chew and spit out (or swallow) compared with worker comb."

ie. more honey in a piece of drone cell cut comb as compared to a piece of worker cell cut comb of the same weight.

BBKA Guide is clear on the matter:

BBKA Guide for Judges:

Cut Comb Honey

"New thin worker foundation is preferred to drone foundation"

Can anyone point to guidance from any of the other Honey Judge Awarding bodies? (Scottish/Welsh/FIBKA/INIB etc.) I am reminded that the BBKA has stepped back from their support of the National Honey Show because of its recognition of non-BBKA Honey Judges.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think the old white containers with clear lids look a lot better and shows the cut comb off better.
IMHO the clear containers look awful.

 

[Poly Hive]

I totally disagree there.

The new ones to my eyes look stunning and coupled with the coloured sleeve look very professional.

Both sides of the comb can be seen and I am given to believe they don't LEAK which is a not inconsiderable advantage to both the producer and consumer.

PH

 

[Swarm]

I wouldn't care if it was on grease proof paper, I won't put up another entry for some so called judge to dismiss.

 

[Poly Hive]

Your choice but the downside to that is not winning those bonny red tickets.

Nils desperandum

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I totally disagree there.

The new ones to my eyes look stunning and coupled with the coloured sleeve look very professional.

With the sleeve they look just tghe same as the white cartons, without, in my view they still look awful

 

[Michael Palmer]

Not all clear comb honey containers are created the same. The one I use is perfect and I wouldn't use any other. There are cheap food service containers that are terrible, like clam shell. Maybe you've seen one of those?

 

[Beefriendly]

With the sleeve they look just tghe same as the white cartons, without, in my view they still look awful

Are we talking same thing?

I like the clear containers but they are larger than the cut comb cutters..... makes you look a cheap skate.