Queenless following A/S? - thoughts please because I'm puzzled.

[Cuddly Bear]

I had a strong colony with an unmarked and unclipped 2013 queen that had overwintered on a brood and a half. On 3rd May I conducted as Pagden A/S which went well with the queen on a frame of brood going into a new box on the site of the original with the remaining frames being foundation, a full super was put on top for food separated by QE. I inspected two days later to double check I hadn't missed any queen cells and found two new charged Q cells which I removed. I didn't see HM or eggs at this inspection, but was not concerned as there was no space to lay on the old brood frame and new foundation had yet to be drawn.

On 10th May conducted inspection of BB, lots of bees, but no eggs seen and no sight of HM. As colony had lots of bees I decided against the second hive move.

On 17th May conducted another inspection of BB, still no eggs or HM. I went through Super to see if she had sneaked through the QE - super was full of honey and no sign of HM or eggs. All brood by this time had been sealed.

On 19th May I put a test frame in with fresh eggs and open brood from a strong colony.

26th May, much to my puzzlement there were no Q cells on test frame - eggs were viable as young brood seen. I went through colony and there was no sign of HM or eggs, or laying worker eggs. They have drawn the foundation and filling it with pollen and nectar and there are clear patches of empty brood frame in the centre of the hive.

So no Q cells mean the bees think they are queen right. Therefore either the queen is hiding there somewhere and isn't laying, or there are laying workers and the house bees are still clearing out their eggs before I see them.

I have put another super of foundation on above the QE to give the bees more space and also on the off chance that HM is hiding in the super and needs some space to lay.

Another suggestion is that the original queen died or flew off with some of the flying bees shortly after A/S. However, the new queen from the parent colony (next door) went out on her mating flight and returned to the wrong hive, which being queenless accepted her in and she hasn't started laying yet.

My concern is how long can I wait before laying workers develop, if they haven't already, before introducing a new queen? And will I have enough time to use a queen from one of the nucs I created on 3rd May?

Any other thoughts??

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

She could have swarmed between the day of the A/S and you rechecking and taking down the last two QC's.
No QC's on a test frame doesn't neccessarily mean Q+ rather if you find QC's they're definitely Q-. They sometimes just don't feel like drawing emergency cells. Try another test frame.

 

[Cuddly Bear]

Thanks, I was considering putting another test frame in. However, I currently only have one other definately Q+ colony with 2 others and 2 nucs in that indeterminate following A/S, so I'm a little reluctant to sacrifice resources from the one proven Q+ hive I have if I can afford to wait. Can I wait until Sunday 31st before the next test frame?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It's only a few days so I don't see why not

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thanks, I was considering putting another test frame in. However, I currently only have one other definately Q+ colony with 2 others and 2 nucs in that indeterminate following A/S, so I'm a little reluctant to sacrifice resources from the one proven Q+ hive I have if I can afford to wait. Can I wait until Sunday 31st before the next test frame?

Snap! But 3 q? colonies here following two splits and a lost swarm. Good luck; hope your weather's better than mine for apine jiggy-jig.

 

[oliver90owner]

Don't understand how you feel you are wasting resources with a test frame. It is not like you are not giving it away or something. The bees will still be there.They would only waste the few cells they might draw into queen cells? If you wanted to be really stingy, you could always replace it after the test period, presuming there are no health problems with these bees. Find one with just a few eggs on it?

If there was no queen, you could even reinforce your queenright colony with these bees? Unless there is a compelling reason, get the job done is my advice.

 

[Cuddly Bear]

Its not the amount of bees, its which hive they are in. I'll be further weakening the Q+ colony as its already lost one frame of brood as a test and wasn't that big to start with. I'll need to find the frame with the least amount of eggs/brood on it to mitigate the loss.

 

[thebhoy]

Its not the amount of bees, its which hive they are in. I'll be further weakening the Q+ colony as its already lost one frame of brood as a test and wasn't that big to start with. I'll need to find the frame with the least amount of eggs/brood on it to mitigate the loss.

You could use frame with most eggs, that way the colony that may be Q- will raise the brood and, if no QC's produced, you can put it back into original hive at the point the new bees will be emerging.
Whilst waiting to obtain a replacement queen the bees can be put to work raising brood to boost the other hive.

 

[Cuddly Bear]

So one the third test frame they have finally created a charged Q cell. However, temperament wise they were dreadful, stinging and following over 50 yards after we beat a hasty retreat (not normal for them at all, even during the time they have been Q-). Original plan was once a Q cell had been created then to introduce the queen from a nuc and swop the queen for the frame with the q cell on. However, I'm tempted to leave the cell to develop until hatched as I don't fancy opening them again until they are queen right.

 

[ratcatcher]

nothing to do with your question as such, but can I ask, why when doing an AS would you put a frame of brood with them?

 

[Cuddly Bear]

nothing to do with your question as such, but can I ask, why when doing an AS would you put a frame of brood with them?

Its the frame that the queen is on when you transfer. All other frames in the box are foundation. Next year I will put a QX between the brood and floor so she doesn't swarm.

 

[ratcatcher]

Its the frame that the queen is on when you transfer. All other frames in the box are foundation. Next year I will put a QX between the brood and floor so she doesn't swarm.

but surely you would just shake/or remove her, as when bees swarm naturally, they don't take frames of brood with them, you then wouldn't need to cage her in

 

[ellypatt]

Sure you moved the original queen and not a new virgin? ie that the original queen hadn't already swarmed and a new one hatched?

 

[ellypatt]

Whoops, just read thread, see they have drawn a q cell on test frame, ignore me.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but surely you would just shake/or remove her, as when bees swarm naturally, they don't take frames of brood with them, you then wouldn't need to cage her in

but this is not a natural swarm - leaving no brood or room to lay at all will mean she will still need space thus will want to go soonest, also the brood will help to keep the the bees tin the hive. Remeber they are still in 'swarming mode' and will be for a few days yet.

 

[Cuddly Bear]

I suspect that the reason she likely swarmed after the AS was because there was insufficient room on the brood comb for her to lay until new comb had been drawn. Lesson learnt for next year.

Still puzzled why they took so long to draw a new Q cell from the test frames.