Queenless Colony and Queen cells - Timings and options

[TMargo]

I only got my first hie this May so am very much beginner.
I became concerned my colony had become queenless as I could not find the queen or any eggs or young larvae, but the colony seemed very even tempered and there didn't seem to be any queen cells being built, either.

I spoke to a much more experienced local beekeeper who did an inspection with me 2 weeks ago (19th July) We couldn't find the queen, and there were no eggs, brood OR queencells, so his advice was that I may have had a supercedure and that there might be a \younger virgin queen, and to give it another week.

Same situation a week later so he gave me a cut out with some fresh eggs from one of his hives, which we put in on Tuesday of this week (26th)

I inspected today and there is one sealed queen cell on the cut out and three others which are not yet sealed. (and no new cells anywhere else).

From what I have read, this should mean that the queen from the sealed queen cell should emerge in another week, and that she will then take 2-3 weeks to mate and start laying.

At this point I have left all of the queen cells built on the cut out.

I am wondering what the best thing to do at this point is.

Presumably if I do nothing, then a virgin queen (or more than one) should emerge in another week, and may start laying withing the next 3 weeks, but by that time will there be any bees young enough to act as nurse bees for her eggs? (the Beekeeper who gave me the cut out couldn't spare a full frame for a test frame, so there aren't any new workers developing in the mean time. If I go down this route would you recommend leaving all 4 queen cells, or should I go back in and reduce them to 1 or 2?


Now that putting the cut out in seems to have established that the colony is definitely queenless, would it be better for me to buy a new, mated queen and introduce her, rather than waiting for the emergency cells to hatch? If I ordered one now she would get her before a virgin emerges from the queen cells which have been built, so presumably the bees would be likely to accept her and she or they would tear down the queen cells at that point. and she would be able to start laying sooner than if I wait for a new queen to emerge.

A final (possible) option (mentioned by the mentor who gave be the cut out) would be that if he has a swarm (he has a bait hive to check) it might be possible to unite this with my hive - I'm a little wary about this - the cost would be similar to buying a new queen and I wonder whether buying a queen would be a better option as at least then I would know her age and origin!

Thank you in advance!

 

[Obee1]

I would definitely buy a mated queen at this time of year - but take down every QC before putting her in otherwise a virgin could pop out and kill your new queen.

 

[Eyeman]

I would definitely buy a mated queen at this time of year - but take down every QC before putting her in otherwise a virgin could pop out and kill your new queen.

 

[Robbo8916]

I would definitely buy a mated queen at this time of year - but take down every QC before putting her in otherwise a virgin could pop out and kill your new queen.

if you wait 8 days for her to hatch, then potentially another 3 weeks to get mated and start laying you are looking at the beginning of September. It is very much weather dependent as to whether your new queen gets mated quickly or not (or at all for that matter). I fell lucky that both my new queens hatched in late June and both managed to get mated on the ONE good day we had which was then followed by three weeks of almost constant rain!

The problem with uniting a swarm of unknown origin with your own bees is the potential to transfer unknown diseases and parasite into your healthy colony. Not necessarily going to happen but I wouldn't risk it personally.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[lindylou32]

The same thing happened with mine, I tried 2 introductions with new Queens but they were unsuccessful as they killed both of them, I am now trying to get a couple of frames of brood & nearly emerging Bees, in hope that they will make an emergency QC and then in hope that I will not run out of time as winter is fast approaching....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The same thing happened with mine, I tried 2 introductions with new Queens but they were unsuccessful as they killed both of them.

What sort of timescale? how did you introduce - How did they become Q-. Are you sure there isn't a virgin in there somewhere?

 

[Erichalfbee]

The same thing happened with mine, I tried 2 introductions with new Queens but they were unsuccessful as they killed both of them, I am now trying to get a couple of frames of brood & nearly emerging Bees, in hope that they will make an emergency QC and then in hope that I will not run out of time as winter is fast approaching....

Idon't know how you introduced but the safest method by far is to make a nuc up and combine. You don't need much in that nuc. One frame of stores one of emerging brood, add drawn frames and your caged queen. Once she has laid up a frame it's probably safe to go. It's the only way I introduce them these days.
Oh and you must be CERTAIN the hive has no queen

 

[Levitt53]

I'm a new beekeeper but for info I gave a q- hive a test frame on 19th June. It's only this weekend just gone that I've been able to confirm that I have a laying queen by seeing sealed brood.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Idon't know how you introduced but the safest method by far is to make a nuc up and combine. You don't need much in that nuc. One frame of stores one of emerging brood, add drawn frames and your caged queen. Once she has laid up a frame it's probably safe to go. It's the only way I introduce them these days.
Oh and you must be CERTAIN the hive has no queen

I must be honest and say I've never bothered with that method - direct introduction to a full colony in a queen cage every time but with the candy covered so they can't get at her until they've got used to her presence.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I must be honest and say I've never bothered with that method - direct introduction to a full colony in a queen cage every time but with the candy covered so they can't get at her until they've got used to her presence.

I just feel safer doing that particularly if the recipient is big and angry and I don't have enough colonies to easily rectify a disaster

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm a new beekeeper but for info I gave a q- hive a test frame on 19th June. It's only this weekend just gone that I've been able to confirm that I have a laying queen by seeing sealed brood.

Egg spotting is a skill you HAVE to master.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I only got my first hie this May so am very much beginner.
snip
A final (possible) option (mentioned by the mentor who gave be the cut out) would be that if he has a swarm (he has a bait hive to check) it might be possible to unite this with my hive - I'm a little wary about this - the cost would be similar to buying a new queen and I wonder whether buying a queen would be a better option as at least then I would know her age and origin!

Thank you in advance!

Are you high in Somerset, or in the balmy lowlands? If the latter there is plenty of time to mate a Q. I would cut back to one cell (open if poss) and leave alone.

Where the fun starts, calendarwise is (see other discussions on this) when they decide to supersede the new Q. That is probably a bit less likely with your current test frame (I assume they are form a good stock?) than a bought Q.

If you're on the moor I'd fire up the Ferrari and nip up to Peter Little at Minehead with £42 in my hot little sticky. Forget the swarm.

 

[Anduril]

I must be honest and say I've never bothered with that method - direct introduction to a full colony in a queen cage every time but with the candy covered so they can't get at her until they've got used to her presence.

Earlier this year I introduced a mated queen directly without cage or smoke into a hopelessly queenless hive. She was a queen I was going to dispose of but had found a hive that was queenless and she ran straight in without opposition.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Earlier this year I introduced a mated queen directly without cage or smoke into a hopelessly queenless hive. She was a queen I was going to dispose of but had found a hive that was queenless and she ran straight in without opposition.

Beginners please note the highlighted text

 

[madasafish]

Egg spotting is a skill you HAVE to master.

For beginners a hand held illuminated magnifying glass can be useful. Mine is now used by my wife for non beekeeping activities

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

For beginners a hand held illuminated magnifying glass can be useful. Mine is now used by my wife for non beekeeping activities

What you do in the privacy of your own bedroom is none of the forum's business

 

[Levitt53]

For beginners a hand held illuminated magnifying glass can be useful. Mine is now used by my wife for non beekeeping activities

Yes I have one of them. I take it to our local quiz for the picture round. I thought I saw a few eggs last week but didn't want to disturb them so left it one more week to be sure.

 

[TMargo]

Thank you all for your help.

I have ordered a new queen - I didn't really fancy uniting with the swarm (assuming it became available) because of the risk of disease and not knowing the source or temper, but thought it was sensible to share all of the options I'd been given so people had fuller information before advising!

I shall take on board all the suggestions to avoid her being killed off as soon as she arrives.

 

[TMargo]

Just popping back to say that the requeening seems to have been successful - introduced her 10 days ago, managed to control myself and *not* go back to check until today, and when I did inspect, found lots of eggs and new brood!
(I didn't actually see HM, which was disappointing, but she isn't marked - unfortunately, although she was supposed to be marked the attendants had cleaned it off in transit, and I decided that as I've never marked a queen before it might be best not to practice on my brand-new one and potentially stressing or squishing her!)


to all those who offered advice.

 

[Anduril]

The same thing happened with mine, I tried 2 introductions with new Queens but they were unsuccessful as they killed both of them, I am now trying to get a couple of frames of brood & nearly emerging Bees, in hope that they will make an emergency QC and then in hope that I will not run out of time as winter is fast approaching....

As an update for lindylou32. The bees were nice and calm after opening up. We found one open queen cell, eggs and a laying queen, which I marked for her last Thursday 1th.