Queenless but not responding to a test frame - does this happen?

[Fatbee]

Hi folks,

I've got a colony that appears queenless (no eggs or brood of any kind). Their behaviour has turned very feisty but they haven't drawn any emergency QCs on the test frame I put in on Friday - they've capped the older worker brood on the frame and are attending to the younger larvae hatched from the eggs but no cells have been extended in to queen cells. So, it would suggest that there is a queen (but not laying) in there but their behaviour just seems very odd - today they were literally boiling out of the brood box down the sides and although pingy they were tending to just boil over my gloves rather than out and out stinging attack. They were not like this last autumn when there was a laying queen in there.

So, the question is, have people had colonies refuse to raise new queens despite being queenless?

One reason I suppose could be that I have placed them on a snelgrove board over another colony to do a gradual bleed off of foragers whilst checking queen state (although there is a two super gap between the bottom brood box and the brood box of this colony) so that could have made them feel queenright - but it doesn't explain the boiling over behaviour - that was just bizarre and never had anything like that happen before.

Any views would be appreciated - I'm not looking to save the colony - one of too many left over from last year so happy to unite but don't like not knowing for sure. Once I have bled a lot of the foragers off I will be able to see what's left in the box more easily (including if there is a queen), currently not easy given the way they are behaving.

 

[Hawklord]

The best way to bleed the foragers off is to pick the whole box up and move it to the other side of the apiary. This will reduce the numbers and calm the temperament so you can make a good search for the queen. I have a colony that likes to come out over the sides of the hive when I'm inspecting, it's a pain trying to find the queen so I won't be breeding from her and she will be replaced as soon as I have a new one ready.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi folks,


So, the question is, have people had colonies refuse to raise new queens despite being queenless?

Yes. One of mine took three test frames.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hi folks,

I've got a colony that appears queenless (no eggs or brood of any kind). Their behaviour has turned very feisty but they haven't drawn any emergency QCs on the test frame I put in on Friday - they've capped the older worker brood on the frame and are attending to the younger larvae hatched from the eggs but no cells have been extended in to queen cells. So, it would suggest that there is a queen (but not laying) in there but their behaviour just seems very odd - today they were literally boiling out of the brood box down the sides and although pingy they were tending to just boil over my gloves rather than out and out stinging attack. They were not like this last autumn when there was a laying queen in there.

So, the question is, have people had colonies refuse to raise new queens despite being queenless?

One reason I suppose could be that I have placed them on a snelgrove board over another colony to do a gradual bleed off of foragers whilst checking queen state (although there is a two super gap between the bottom brood box and the brood box of this colony) so that could have made them feel queenright - but it doesn't explain the boiling over behaviour - that was just bizarre and never had anything like that happen before.

Any views would be appreciated - I'm not looking to save the colony - one of too many left over from last year so happy to unite but don't like not knowing for sure. Once I have bled a lot of the foragers off I will be able to see what's left in the box more easily (including if there is a queen), currently not easy given the way they are behaving.

One of the association hives became apparently queenless last year. After 2 test frames with no luck a seriously detailed inspection finally found a dud queen. She was duly despatched and a third frame worked.

 

[SixFooter]

Hi folks,

So, the question is, have people had colonies refuse to raise new queens despite being queenless

2013 I collected a small cast which I put in a nuc. There were no eggs a few days later, confirming it was a cast, so I left alone for a while for the Q to get mated. I eventually put a test frame in and got a few queen cells, so I assumed the original queen had been lost. I had a quick look at the test frame shortly after the day the new q should have emerged and there were no Queen cells left. I was expecting at least one with an open end, but the bees had torn them all down. To check if there was a queen, I put a test frame in, but got no queen cells this time. However, Shortly after that I had DLWs. I'm guessing the DLWs tore down the queen cells before any queen matured. I gave up at this point and shook them out.

Last year, I had a similar situation with a small cast, but this time, the test frame produced a queen which mated and is heading up a fairly strong colony now. I'm guessing test frames only work if you put them in shortly after the queen is lost.

 

[Finman]

.
Once my friend had a queenless hive after winter. I adviced to put a brood frame there. Bees were not able to start a queen rearing, but when hive got new bees from first frame, second brood frame got queen cells.

I believe that old bees had lost their ability to make queen cells.
New bees made it.
.

 

[Fatbee]

Interesting replies - thank you all.

Seems that as ever with bees nothing is conclusive. My money is on a dud queen and the bees dramatic temperament change is caused by the lack of brood for them to attend to. They are foraging but with little conviction. Sounds like a more thorough search is needed when more of the "boiling" foragers are thinned out.

I've been very lucky to date so a colony like this I can't moan about and despite it being unfortunate certainly gets the grey matter going - plus it pays to take time to determine the state of the colony. A quick unite here could have been a disaster.

 

[madasafish]

Interesting replies - thank you all.


I've been very lucky to date so a colony like this I can't moan about and despite it being unfortunate certainly gets the grey matter going - plus it pays to take time to determine the state of the colony. A quick unite here could have been a disaster.

Err you can always unite over a queen excluder...just in case...

 

[Fatbee]

Just to finish off the thread, I added another test frame for interest and this time four very short queen cells were developed and sealed so queenless they were. Now united and OK. The pAthetic looking QCs reinforces the importance of young nurse bees to me - these old winter bees not up to the job despite having pollen on nearby frames. Do people think the same applies when people try and raise new queens with older, foraging bees?

 

[B+.]

Do people think the same applies when people try and raise new queens with older, foraging bees?

Absolutely - when young bees consume pollen, the hypopharyngeal gland secretes royal jelly to the mouth parts of the nurse bee which is fed to the developing larvae. When the colony has fewer nurse bees, they are able to make emergency queens but they are poorly nourished. A queen needs good nourishment for the ovaries to develop. Without proper nourishment you only get stunted queens
http://honeybee.drawwing.org/book/hypopharyngeal-glands

I should add that the role a bee does is "programmed" into it. It moves from one role to another as it reaches that point in its life. Over-wintered bees haven't exhausted their hypopharyngeal glands so they can do the job if necessary. Its just that a lot of young bees do a better job.

 

[user 6228]

yet more information (confusing sort)...
Colony gone broodless There was sac brood in the nest.
We had them refuse to make a Queen...

A couple of weeks later back to normal with the original Queen

 

[Goran]

Hi folks,

I've got a colony that appears queenless (no eggs or brood of any kind). Their behaviour has turned very feisty but they haven't drawn any emergency QCs on the test frame I put in on Friday - they've capped the older worker brood on the frame and are attending to the younger larvae hatched from the eggs but no cells have been extended in to queen cells. So, it would suggest that there is a queen (but not laying) in there but their behaviour just seems very odd - today they were literally boiling out of the brood box down the sides and although pingy they were tending to just boil over my gloves rather than out and out stinging attack. They were not like this last autumn when there was a laying queen in there.

So, the question is, have people had colonies refuse to raise new queens despite being queenless?

One reason I suppose could be that I have placed them on a snelgrove board over another colony to do a gradual bleed off of foragers whilst checking queen state (although there is a two super gap between the bottom brood box and the brood box of this colony) so that could have made them feel queenright - but it doesn't explain the boiling over behaviour - that was just bizarre and never had anything like that happen before.

Any views would be appreciated - I'm not looking to save the colony - one of too many left over from last year so happy to unite but don't like not knowing for sure. Once I have bled a lot of the foragers off I will be able to see what's left in the box more easily (including if there is a queen), currently not easy given the way they are behaving.

My mentor had experience when one colony become queenless, he added 2 times queens in cage and both times bees killed added queens. He went furious and inspected thoroughly the colony and found on bottom board old dead queen. And bunch of bees around her..

If You are determined to find a queen, place on empty box qe, and above empty box, take the frame by frame and shake the bees into it, worker bees will go through qe, queen and drones will remain above. When some colony have to sort by any cause I use as last option. But in my case was 100% efficient.. But eye somehow is trained now and rarely I miss a queen, even unmarked..

 

[Finman]

.
Fatbees case was similar what I wrote in this chain.