Queen still in residence despite capped queen cells

[Fatbee]

All,

I inspected one of my strongest hives today with a 2013 queen and having seen a lot of play cups last week these had now turned in to about 8 queen cells with a larva at slightly different stages. Interestingly one was capped and I immediately thought 'darn it' they must have swarmed. Imagine my surprise when looking across a frame my red dotted queen from last year was still there. I've done an A/S but it did get me wondering if others have experienced a queen not swarming even with a capped QC. The weather is a bit cloudy but the bees are in to the OSR well so don't think the weather would prevent a swarm.

The books all say if you find a capped cell then she has probably already gone but not in this case! I don't think it was supersedure because cells were at bottom of frames and she had been laying very strongly. Either way, hopefully the A/S will right it and I will have another colony although I left the capped cell plus another with a big fat larva in case the capped cell was a dud. I'm thinking I should have actually looked in this cell and left two in larva form but easy to see this sat back at home!
Have others found capped Q cells with the queen still in residence that weren't supersedure cells?

Fatbee.

 

[Stiffy]

All,

I inspected one of my strongest hives today with a 2013 queen and having seen a lot of play cups last week these had now turned in to about 8 queen cells with a larva at slightly different stages. Interestingly one was capped and I immediately thought 'darn it' they must have swarmed. Imagine my surprise when looking across a frame my red dotted queen from last year was still there. I've done an A/S but it did get me wondering if others have experienced a queen not swarming even with a capped QC. The weather is a bit cloudy but the bees are in to the OSR well so don't think the weather would prevent a swarm.

The books all say if you find a capped cell then she has probably already gone but not in this case! I don't think it was supersedure because cells were at bottom of frames and she had been laying very strongly. Either way, hopefully the A/S will right it and I will have another colony although I left the capped cell plus another with a big fat larva in case the capped cell was a dud. I'm thinking I should have actually looked in this cell and left two in larva form but easy to see this sat back at home!
Have others found capped Q cells with the queen still in residence that weren't supersedure cells?

Fatbee.

Yep have found a few times when I have missed a qcell but normally get them sorted before they cap any.
I doubt its anything too unusual and more likely a case of the bees not reading the same books.....thank goodness.
S

 

[YorkshireBees]

Just yesterday I found one hive with approx 12+ charged QC's and 1-2 capped but the Queen was still there. The bees know best as even though yesterday was a lovely day weatherwise today isn't! My luck in this case as I'm betting they would have swarmed in a couple of days time given the weather window!

Although people and books say that a the queen and a swarm have generally gone when you find a capped QC it is, as many other situations with bees, entirely possible that it is not that case.

I have also experienced swarms leave before any QC was capped.

All part of the beekeeping experience.

ps If you found several QC's then it is highly likely that they were swarm cells and not supersedure cells.

 

[Chris B]

It's not uncommon, especially with a clipped queen.
The converse is also true i.e. they can swarm before cells are capped.
It's only a rough guide. Any books that say otherwise are basically wrong.

 

[Fatbee]

Thanks all. The beauty of beekeeping is that as you get more experienced you write your own book! I'm in my second full season and still see something new everytime I'm in the apiary.

 

[itma]

It's not uncommon, especially with a clipped queen.

To rephrase and clarify that, clipping should delay a swarm succeeding in leaving until at least one princess has emerged, rather than merely reached the capping stage.


Swarms will sometimes leave with QCs uncapped -- but usually only after someone has tried to prevent swarming by knocking down QCs …

 

[Tomo]

With regards to a capped QC being a "dudd", not sure if the girls would have bothered to have capped it if this was the case. I would have thought they could tell if she was dead/deformed etc and torn down? Bees usually know best.
Would the belt and braces approach lead to a cast? Just a thought.....

 

[Jed D]

We've been struggling to inspect ours ( weather / Temp ) etc...
The last two weeks we've popped the crown board and check supers only !!!!! Thinking, if in doubt , give them space...
After putting the third super on our biggest colony , I was getting jumpy....

So last wednesday, bit the bullet and dived into the Brood...
Found 11 frames of Bias + 6 loaded Q cells ( 2 capped ) and drone comb bridged between the bottoms of the frames and sticking to the floor !!!!!

They don't seem to have swarmed , as they are packed with bees and eggs everywhere.

My reaction to the above , after the shear panic...
Remove all Q cells and add another brood box with 11 frames of foundation...

We still need to get in there properly , clean up the drone cells etc...

In the meantime , I'm hoping that lots of work will hold them back.
We're also planning to spin the top supers out, somewhere this weekend, before they fly off with the contents...

P.S. Got strung twice, ear lobe and cheek , face like Elephant man...

P.P.S I could not find the Queen as this was a 2 minute dive in and out, temperature 15 degrees ' but wind easterly and cold..

 

[TOBY-3652]

Just a warning.. Based on my experience,, sometimes when i have done a as when the queen cells are so advanced, they have got it in there head to swarm. I had 3 last year that did 3 or 4 days after i artificial swarmed them..

 

[Jed D]

In our area , I'm guessing the weather is holding them back from swarming..
The last two nights have been + 2 degrees....
Wednesday morning we had a frost !!!!

I left a couple of cups with Royal Jelly ' but no Lavae...
Looking at the weather, will be back in the Hive on Monday , when we may need to do an AS.....
Fingers crossed.... And checking the hedge every 2 hours....

 

[bontbee]

Swarms will sometimes leave with QCs uncapped -- but usually only after someone has tried to prevent swarming by knocking down QCs…

Not necessarily, itma. I've missed a swarm or two with only unsealed QCs in the colony and no prior QC removal. I can only assume that the bees know what they are doing in not waiting for the cells to be sealed!

 

[fiftyjon]

It's not uncommon, especially with a clipped queen.

I also have seen it a few times in colonies with clipped queens, sealed cells and the queen still laying where she can.

Perform an artificial swarm and all is well.

 

[oliver90owner]

The books all say if you find a capped cell then she has probably already gone

Here is just one of the qualifying words (in italics) in this thread - there are more than this one example. The word 'probably' simply shows it is the more common outcome. Readers of posts and responders should note this. There are very few cast iron rues in beekeeping. Yours is not the only deviation from the general rules.

 

[itma]

…
Swarms will sometimes leave with QCs uncapped -- but usually only after someone has tried to prevent swarming by knocking down QCs …

Not necessarily, itma. I've missed a swarm or two with only unsealed QCs in the colony and no prior QC removal. I can only assume that the bees know what they are doing in not waiting for the cells to be sealed!

"Not necessarily" - ???

I've said nothing "necessarily". I've said it can happen sometimes, and then usually (but I didn't say always) because of prior QC removal.

I'm sure that it isn't unknown or impossible for a swarm to leave before QCs are sealed without prior QC knockdown - but that is going to be a rather rare event. I suspect that it would be much much rarer than a beekeeper not spotting the QC … which I'm sure all of us have done occasionally (or will do soon!)


/// ADDED - My main reason for posting my earlier comment was to make certain that those trying to prevent swarming by QC destruction are aware that they should not count on the bees waiting until the next QC is capped. They will very likely swarm ahead of schedule. Knocking down QCs is generally UNhelpful to deterring swarming.

 

[bontbee]

"Not necessarily" - ???

I've said nothing "necessarily". I've said it can happen sometimes, and then usually (but I didn't say always) because of prior QC removal.

I'm sure that it isn't unknown or impossible for a swarm to leave before QCs are sealed without prior QC knockdown - but that is going to be a rather rare event. I suspect that it would be much much rarer than a beekeeper not spotting the QC … which I'm sure all of us have done occasionally (or will do soon!)


/// ADDED - My main reason for posting my earlier comment was to make certain that those trying to prevent swarming by QC destruction are aware that they should not count on the bees waiting until the next QC is capped. They will very likely swarm ahead of schedule. Knocking down QCs is generally UNhelpful to deterring swarming.

Sorry, itma, I wasn't trying to suggest you were being dogmatic either when I used the words not "necessarily" - I just wanted to note that they sometimes / very occasionally will leave before qcs are sealed - even if it's the first time cells have appeared.....I agree, cutting out qcs isn't a method of swarm management, let alone prevention.