Queen sickness?

[Swarm]

We have seen similar posts about continuously drawing cells, splits and parent colonies going on to draw cells and it seems to be occurring throughout the country. My friend has found the same and is fed up with splitting colonies and finding they either fail to requeen or immediately draw more cells.
I've found the opposite, only a few have made swarm preparations and three drew single cells and superseded, something I've never had in Spring. I do however have a colony that appears to be queenless, so one failure for whatever reason. The superseded queens were 2021, 2020 and 2019 so no pattern to it other than the time. An overwintered nuc built up really fast after hiving it up and I found a very full box of bees and a single, charged, early cell which I broke down. There was BIAS and the queen was there strutting around the combs, she needed space so I moved her up to double brood. No further cells. The majority have made no attempt and the hives are throbbing, to the point I've been making up supers of foundation as all my comb is out but they needed the space.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm awaiting next months' article complaining about poorly mated queens now

I remember going to a Sunday morning 'lecture' about poor queen matings at the BBKA spring convention once, after listening to a long winded ramble about the general loss of virility in all species and how his nephew was now his niece (and enduring the smug chuckles and virtual backslapping from his 'master' beekeeper cronies in the audience I asked whether the obsession with drone culling may have more relevance............
It went down as well as a pubic hair floating in a half empty punchbowl, when I heard some mutterings about the wicker man and bonfires, I went and got me coat.

 

[Fritillary]

You do come up with some (unfortunately!) unforgettable images JBM... Fortunately though, I don't seem to go to events where there are bowls of punch.

I've worried in the past that esp my top bar bees,w/o foundation constraints I thought? produced so many drones in the spring, but then, why wouldn't a healthy colony produce lots at that time of year? The only trouble seems to be that if/when there's a shortage of nectar later, as this year, they are practically eaten out of house and home by their own drone population.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Fortunately though, I don't seem to go to events where there are bowls of punch.

we used to make punch in plastic buckets at parties - when emptied they were also handy for those who didn't get on with red wine, apricot brandy and thunderbird (with a dash of orange juice) to throw up in

 

[Fritillary]

There's posh!

 

[JamezF]

I asked whether the obsession with drone culling may have more relevance

I have often wondered this myself. I feel sure the bees won't raise a huge population of drones just for the hell of it. Evolution would probably select against them if they did. So if they do have lots of drones (or drone brood) it's probably for a good reason and taking them away would seem likely to have negative consequences, surely?

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have often wondered this myself. I feel sure the bees won't raise a huge population of drones just for the hell of it. Evolution would probably select against them if they did. So if they do have lots of drones (or drone brood) it's probably for a good reason and taking them away would seem likely to have negative consequences, surely?

James

And my names Emyr - not Shirley

 

[boywonder]

that will do the job of finishing the poor buggers off.

First thing I'd do is have a good look at varroa levels.

So I did have a look at varroa levels. For a couple, it was a bit too late (what's the conclusion you can draw from counts of drops from heavily depleted colonies, with (being queenless) no brood ?). In doing so, I monitored a couple of queenright, and relatively well populated colonies displaying early signs of similar problems (lack of vigour, K-wing etc...). I monitored drops over 8 days, and was fastidious in my counting, extrapolation etc...

The long and short of is that I do not appear to have excessive varroa. The Beebase calculator ran out at estimates of 120-300 mites, and advice to treat in the next couple of weeks. Indeed, by all accounts, I call that 'low'. I have had colonies which tolerate very high levels of varroa and thrive.

K-wing being associated with acarine, I was interested to see if I could check for this microscopically. I took samples of bees from two of the heavily depleted colonies.

One of these ("Colony A") went queenless having raised a laying 2022 Queen following a May swarming event. Upon her demise / disappearance, they part pulled emergency cells, but did not successfully raise a new Queen. In general, the bees (at an individual level) are not showing excessive signs of ill-health, and in a normal season, I would just put this colony's demise down to freak circumstances.

The other ("Colony B") has been a basket case all season. It had a 2021, late mated Queen at the start of the season. It displayed low vigour, and never got beyond 5 frames of BIAS, and was sticking around that level until mid-May when they showed signs of supersedure (which was a relief), but ended-up swarming on the couple of cells they raised. The (then depleted) colony appeared to be raising a new Queen (polished cells etc..), but I never saw her. The colony went on to become drone laying (DLQ or DLW, I can't be sure, but I think the former), had lots of K-wing, and some brood conditions. I would say the bees were 'unhealthy'.

Please forgive what follows. It is "best endeavours" microscopy from someone who has neither the equipment nor the experience. I really struggled to slice the bees to reveal the trachea (mostly just revealing the muscle in the thorax) - partly due to equipment/experience, but mainly also as the bees were quite mushy/squishy.

The best photo of the trachea is the first photo from Colony B. I thought that looked gratifyingly good. However two photos are inconclusive to me. These are the second photos from each of the two colonies. The "Colony A" #2 has quite a lot of collar debris obsuring the view; the "Colony B" #2 has very unusual discolouration and dark "things" in it, and is concerning.

Anyhow, as you will tell, I am not expert in this. As such, and relying on the 'wisdom of the crowd', I was wondering/hoping that someone on here might be able to have a look and comment on any issues (or otherwise) they see.

Tonight, I hope to be able to do a microscopic Nosema examination on a sample of 30 bees from each.

Look forward to hearing any comments on the contents of these photos in the meantime:

Colony A:









Colony B:

 

[madasafish]

When I have colonies doing poorly my first inclination is to vape and feed them sugar syrup treated with thymol to prevent mould.

Does not prevent swarming, bald brood or my killing Qs by accident though.

 

[boywonder]

When I have colonies doing poorly my first inclination is to vape and feed them sugar syrup treated with thymol to prevent mould.

Does not prevent swarming, bald brood or my killing Qs by accident though.

At least one - and probably both - of these Queens were not killed by accident, though.

As per previous posts in the thread, a number of colonies, across three apiaries (and, by a number, I mean over 50% of >20 colonies) have experienced:
- premature swarming
- swarming or supersedure giving rise to one (or more) of:
-- Queens which have come into lay, then vanished, followed by failure to raise a new, viable Queen
-- no evident Queen, and failed attempts to raise a new one
-- Queens which have come into lay, and quickly turned drone laying.

These two are just the colonies I have chosen to sample.

Over and above this excessive failure, I have low vigour (generally), colonies which are failing to grow in line with expectations, and evidence of viral load (lots of K-wing across all apiaries, some sacbrood, some chalkbrood, and some deformed wing).

This is exceptional in all my 9 years; so I make no excuse for trying to get to the bottom of it.

Thymol is good to a point (and I forgot to mention that I not only treat with Thymol-based applications in Autumn, but also fed a number of the weak colonies with Thymolated syrup in spring), but is useless against viruses, and against Acarine.

I appreciate the comment - but, as you'll see, I'm dismissing it.

I would like some thoughts from someone on the tracheal images, and I will report back on Nosema.

There is something afoot, and I'm determined to get to the bottom of it. To be honest, my instinct tells me that this has been as a result of some May-time spraying of some hideous compound or other, affecting either drone viability or the bees/colonies as a whole.

 

[drex]

Thymol for varroa is also active against acarine. Not the best dissection. You need to use very fresh bees. The only pic that is of slight concern to me is 007, where there is a definite shadow inside one trachea. The rest, it is hard to say due to dissection but I see nothing troubling.
Mind you, I have done a fair bit of microscopy and am yet to see acarine.
All my colonies were slow to get going this year, no significant disease issue apart from a bit of chalk.
I put it down to weather and poor forage. They have all picked up and I expect a bumper crop

 

[boywonder]

Thanks @drex . I accept this is not the best dissection. The bees were only 'fresh' to the extent they were frozen within 20 mins of collection. Even then, on inspection of the bees (following only brief defrosting), the ones from Colony B were decomposing, had voided their guts, and had a distinct aroma. Those from Colony A were relatively 'fresh'. I had considered immersing each in alcohol immediately, and then dissecting shortly thereafter. Apologies, but what's the best way for killing and keeping the bees ?

You mention picture 007. It might be the device I am using to view the forum, but I cannot correlate. Could you please explain (e.g. is it the third picture on Colony B ?). If you were able to screengrab/highlight, that might be helpful to me and others.

I appreciate you looking, and your comments, Thanks

 

[boywonder]

Also, having done my Module 3, and (more importanly, as I am not the big "I am") see https://nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=1057 ... I am not aware that Thymol has any known effect on acarine. The NBU suggest formic acid.

 

[drex]

First picture colony B. A shadow at the intersection of the two tubes.
By fresh, I mean killed there and then. Freezing will produce mush.
Dave Cushman mentions thymol.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/acarinetreatment.htmlSeveral mentions of thymol elsewhere but I can find no definitive proof

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The Beebase calculator

which is about as much use as a plastic poker................

 

[boywonder]

Hi All, sorry to keep this "Queen Sickness" thread/saga running, but I have some videos to share from an inspection today. Apologies for the poor resolution. Hopefully they display OK.


View attachment Queen_Staggering_1.mp4


View attachment Queen_Staggering_2.mp4

This colony was last fully inspected on 26/06 (again, remiss of me, but this box had already swarmed in May, and was one of my "leave them to get on with it" hives). On that inspection, the (yellow-marked) Queen was seen and I had 6 (14x12) frames of BIAS - so she appears to have mated OK and had come into lay fairly well during June. Nonetheless, my notes said, "Brood not looking amazing; some bald brood".

It was one which I feared might go down the swanny, like many of my others this year, where the pattern was roughly:

• early swarming
• new Queen come into lay
• Queen then vanished
• evidence of EQCs seen in some (including abandoned), none in others
• Queenless colony goes on to dwindle and die

As per the title of my thread, I put this down to "Queen Sickness" ... and the videos today seem to show this in action.

When last inspected (4 weeks ago), there were eggs, larvae and sealed brood. I am confident that the Queen was not damaged during this inspection. Even if she had been (which she wasn't), the colony had enough raw material to replace her, should they have chosen to.

Fast forward to today. Again, I am 100% confident that the Queen was not damaged when the frames were pulled. I make sure I work with plenty of space, and do not roll bees. She was in the middle of the frame.

Anyhow, the videos speak for themselves, the looks like she is lame. She is staggering about like she's p*ssed, was tumbling onto her back, and basically looked like she was dying before my very eyes. It made me feel somewhat queasy.

Furthermore, there was NO unsealed brood in the colony whatsoever - meaning both that she has been off-lay for over a week, but which also means that the colony has no chance of raising any new Queen from hereon in (unless I introduce material). There are no signs of attempts, in this case, to raise EQCs.

To me, this feels like some kind of smoking gun, as similar Queen demise (ceasing laying, and then a week or so later, kicking the bucket) feels like it is the plausible common reason.

I really am looking for some thoughts as to what kind of malady might be affecting this Queen ?

• I did a varroa count on this colony 2 weeks ago, and it has a low population
• I am not ruling Acarine out, but my previous (shoddy) microscope pictures do not seem to have piqued huge concern
• Nosema levels are low (only v. few N.Ceranae cells to be seen from a sample of 30 bees)

I will not let it lie ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why don't you message David Evans on his blog. If it's a virus he might have an opinion on it

 

[drex]

In the first video she is getting plenty of attention from her retinue, which is a good sign her pheromones are OK.
In the second video her right hind leg is sticking out, looks a bit manky, and does not move at all. I think localised physical damage. Why off lay? Is this enough reason.? Other queens still laying well?

 

[pargyle]

We have seen similar posts about continuously drawing cells, splits and parent colonies going on to draw cells and it seems to be occurring throughout the country. My friend has found the same and is fed up with splitting colonies and finding they either fail to requeen or immediately draw more cells.
I've found the opposite, only a few have made swarm preparations and three drew single cells and superseded, something I've never had in Spring. I do however have a colony that appears to be queenless, so one failure for whatever reason. The superseded queens were 2021, 2020 and 2019 so no pattern to it other than the time. An overwintered nuc built up really fast after hiving it up and I found a very full box of bees and a single, charged, early cell which I broke down. There was BIAS and the queen was there strutting around the combs, she needed space so I moved her up to double brood. No further cells. The majority have made no attempt and the hives are throbbing, to the point I've been making up supers of foundation as all my comb is out but they needed the space.

Interesting ... I hadn't read your post Steve when I posted this ... makes you wonder ?

Research into swarming Post#15

 

[Swarm]

It certainly does.