Queen Replacement

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does JBM's success depend on the type of cage?

I can imagine immediate intro using a push-in cage would be effective, but the little yellow cage with the tab less so: fill with fondant & break the tab straight away, or release by hand after a day? Or a week? Smoke the bees when releasing her? Dip her in water?

I've tried a few of these variants and have yet to reduce the worry.

Jzbz or the bog standard yellow plastic ones (other colours are available)
I was paranoid on introducing my first queen, I read Snelgrove's 'on the introduction of queen bees' from cover to cover more than once (night anchor watches in secluded coves had it's uses!) also discussed methods with other beeks, including the late great Ricky Wilson (from whom I bought my first ever replacement queen). Snelgrove is a must read - he doesn't tell you what method you should use, but just discusses every method, including the crazy ones and lays out the pros and cons of each one, leaving you to decide.
I finally decided on my method and without tempting fate have had a very high success rate. The only times I've really had introduction failures is when I've been influenced by the usual chatter and diverged from my tried and tested method.

 

[madasafish]

On the KISS principle:
1. I would remove all QCs : if anything goes wrong and a virgin emerges, more work. Derisk and remove ALL NOW . And check again the day before you add the new Queen
2. I dequeen and replace within 30 minutes on the above basis: no issues so far in a decade

You - or at least I - find anything that can go wrong does if you rush things. So do as much work before hand. Chasing virgin Qs is a real PIA even for experienced beeks.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Introducing a new queen in one of those cages you get in the post five minutes after the death of the old one has always worked for me. BUT I have to be mindful that black bees, especially horrid ones, don’t like orange queens….. sometimes not even black ones. Orange bees are not fussy. As a rule. The best way to requeen black bees, I have found, is with a new queen that is laying and via a nuc combine.

 

[Beedogg]

This is turning into a bit of saga. And I must admit to being somewhat deflated/confused.

So, a second bought new mated queen was introduced to a hopelessly Q- colony that had previously killed an introduced queen. The Queen was left caged for 48 hrs; then tab removed; then left for 10 days; then she was spotted running about apparently happy. That was 3 days ago.

Went out to the apiary to do something else but, on looking at the bees going in and out of this colony I was surprised to see the marked new queen on the ground outside the hive, with a dozen or so other bees. I was puzzled. I picked her up and put her back on the landing board where she was immediately balled by bees from the colony. After a few minutes I blew them off her, expecting to find her dead. I fact she was alive so I popped her into a queen cage and put her in my pocket whilst I had a think.

I opened the hive and re-checked looking for any signs of laying. There was none. Nor did I see any other queen there, although obviously I can't rule that out. So, in the absence of any other idea as to what to do I put her back onto one of the frames where, again, she was balled by the bees. She and they dropped down into the colony before I could intervene although, tbh, I'm really not sure what I could or should have done.

So my first question is: what's going on? They have been hopelessly Q- for about three weeks and they'd appeared to have accepted her, only to reject her some two weeks after introduction. Why would they do that? Why would they make themselves deliberately Q- again?

PS. in order to double-check that they are indeed Q- I have just put in a frame of BIAS from another colony. I hope that that will show what's going on.

Very perplexing...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They have been hopelessly Q- for about three weeks

and that is your problem

 

[Swarm]

This is turning into a bit of saga. And I must admit to being somewhat deflated/confused.

So, a second bought new mated queen was introduced to a hopelessly Q- colony that had previously killed an introduced queen. The Queen was left caged for 48 hrs; then tab removed; then left for 10 days; then she was spotted running about apparently happy. That was 3 days ago.

Went out to the apiary to do something else but, on looking at the bees going in and out of this colony I was surprised to see the marked new queen on the ground outside the hive, with a dozen or so other bees. I was puzzled. I picked her up and put her back on the landing board where she was immediately balled by bees from the colony. After a few minutes I blew them off her, expecting to find her dead. I fact she was alive so I popped her into a queen cage and put her in my pocket whilst I had a think.

I opened the hive and re-checked looking for any signs of laying. There was none. Nor did I see any other queen there, although obviously I can't rule that out. So, in the absence of any other idea as to what to do I put her back onto one of the frames where, again, she was balled by the bees. She and they dropped down into the colony before I could intervene although, tbh, I'm really not sure what I could or should have done.

So my first question is: what's going on? They have been hopelessly Q- for about three weeks and they'd appeared to have accepted her, only to reject her some two weeks after introduction. Why would they do that? Why would they make themselves deliberately Q- again?

PS. in order to double-check that they are indeed Q- I have just put in a frame of BIAS from another colony. I hope that that will show what's going on.

Very perplexing...

Do you have access to a virgin queen? If they draw emergency cells, squash them and introduce your virgin in a cage with a candy plug. They are more likely to accept a virgin than a laying queen IMO, it's what they are expecting to see.

 

[Ian123]

Are you sure there’s not a virgin of their own running around!
It must also be said whilst we often requeen poor/stroppy hives I think the biggest waste of brought in queens is when introducing them to bad tempered colonies.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It must also be said whilst we often requeen poor/stroppy hives I think the biggest waste of brought in queens is when introducing them to bad tempered colonies.

Yes best introduced in a nuc of nice bees then United once laying.

 

[markb2603]

Some good news from my side this evening. Checked both nucs and both queens happily released and laying very well!

 

[Beedogg]

I checked the frame of BIAS and there are no queen cells. So I think that they unavoidable conclusion is that there is a young queen in there, but damned if I can find her. Grrrrr

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I checked the frame of BIAS and there are no queen cells. So I think that they unavoidable conclusion is that there is a young queen in there, but damned if I can find her. Grrrrr

not necessarily - they don't always make QCs even when they've been hopelessly queenless for a while

 

[pargyle]

not necessarily - they don't always make QCs even when they've been hopelessly queenless for a while

I've had one colony where the queen died - I know as I found her body - there was a healthy colony left but no eggs or larvae, no queen cells .. so I introduced a frame with eggs - NOTHING .. they just sealed them up, I tried another - same again - tried again with just a piece of comb with eggs inserted into a frame. Nothing ... Some colonies seem to have a death wish. They were not agressive, no laying workers, definitely no queen in there - but just steadfastly refused to make a new queen. Lesson learned for me - if I want a colony to raise a new queen from a frame with eggs - they get one chance. After that they get combined with another colony - to be honest, now, I would just buy in a new queen and then split a nuc off the combined colony if I was making numbers up. But, thereagain - I'm not a proper beekeeper.

 

[Beedogg]

I checked again today. I still can't find a queen and I searched back and forth. However, they have now raised 2x what look like supercedure cells on the frame (one each side). So I took one down and left the other and we'll see what happens.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what do supersedure cells look like?

 

[Beedogg]

I detect a hint of unkindness in that question...

But that aside: from what I've read SQCs tend to be few in number and in the middle of a frame. As opposed to swarm cells which tend to be on the edges, and ECQs which tend to be more numerous.

But go on - shoot me down. I'm trying to learn.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I detect a hint of unkindness in that question.

bit early in the evening for handbag clutching.
Supersedure cells do tend to be fewer in number - but they can be found anywhere. think in three dimensions not two (leave that to the 'master' beekeepers), you tend to find them on the periphery of the brood nest so only in the middle of the frame if it's the first/last frame of the cluster, in the centre of the hive they could be on the top, middle or bottom of the frame but towards the sides - frequently tucked in between the comb and the sidebars to make it hard for the old queen to find.
Swarm cells can be anywhere (I seldom find them on the frame bottoms) and can be few (one or two) or numerous.
I find EQC's tend to be no more numerous than swarm cells, often few, but the way they are produced from normally developed young larvae means they often look quite different to swarm or supersedure cells.
In your case it may be 'comfortable' to assume they are EQCs or supersedure, but in general, especially at this time of year, treat all as swarm preparation.

 

[Newbeeneil]

bit early in the evening for handbag clutching.
Supersedure cells do tend to be fewer in number - but they can be found anywhere. think in three dimensions not two (leave that to the 'master' beekeepers), you tend to find them on the periphery of the brood nest so only in the middle of the frame if it's the first/last frame of the cluster, in the centre of the hive they could be on the top, middle or bottom of the frame but towards the sides - frequently tucked in between the comb and the sidebars to make it hard for the old queen to find.
Swarm cells can be anywhere (I seldom find them on the frame bottoms) and can be few (one or two) or numerous.
I find EQC's tend to be no more numerous than swarm cells, often few, but the way they are produced from normally developed young larvae means they often look quite different to swarm or supersedure cells.
In your case it may be 'comfortable' to assume they are EQCs or supersedure, but in general, especially at this time of year, treat all as swarm preparation.

One of you more muted replies JBM, but very succinctly put.

 

[Beedogg]

bit early in the evening for handbag clutching.
Supersedure cells do tend to be fewer in number - but they can be found anywhere. think in three dimensions not two (leave that to the 'master' beekeepers), you tend to find them on the periphery of the brood nest so only in the middle of the frame if it's the first/last frame of the cluster, in the centre of the hive they could be on the top, middle or bottom of the frame but towards the sides - frequently tucked in between the comb and the sidebars to make it hard for the old queen to find.
Swarm cells can be anywhere (I seldom find them on the frame bottoms) and can be few (one or two) or numerous.
I find EQC's tend to be no more numerous than swarm cells, often few, but the way they are produced from normally developed young larvae means they often look quite different to swarm or supersedure cells.
In your case it may be 'comfortable' to assume they are EQCs or supersedure, but in general, especially at this time of year, treat all as swarm preparation.

Thank you. I'm not trying to have an argument; I'm just trying to learn.
I guess that I should start treating all such cells as swarm cells at this time of year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thank you. I'm not trying to have an argument; I'm just trying to learn.
I guess that I should start treating all such cells as swarm cells at this time of year.

always the best way.
Unless you're feeling lucky

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

One of you more muted replies JBM, but very succinctly put.

I'm sure I replied to you but it seems to have vanished.