Queen finally mated and laying; trying to swarm again, help please!

[Beeyonce]

Hi there

I'll try to keep a long story short and this may be a really stupid question.

My virgin queen finally came good and came in to lay about 7 weeks after I saw her run in (I have a theory that it took that long because she's a bit of a munter and the drones decided it was her or nothing, lol).

Now the bees are attempting to swarm again; 6 charged queen cells today about 2 to 3 weeks after she came in to lay. I cannot find the queen despite three runs through today but here's the thing; they're on double brood and she's laid up 7 frames but on one brood box only (my colonies are on double brood) and I don't really want to do an artificial swarm at this time of year. This colony has been a pain all year but I have noticed that they have only ever laid in the bottom box. So the other day when I found an egg in a queen cell I moved the empty bottom brood box to the top. Today, still no eggs in that box but all the queen cells. Today I've swapped some of the frames for other frames as I'm sure I've read somewhere that bees don't like to use cells for brood that have previously held stores. Could this be the problem or has this colony finally driven me round the bend? Or do I just have to suck it up and do an AS?

If you have managed to read this far I thank you sincerely, apologies!

 

[itma]

Double brood makes it 4x as difficult to find the queen, imho!
If the bottom brood box was "empty", I'm not quite sure why you are on double, or changed them round ...

If you have a spare box, you could move the problem hive several yards away, so that the flyers aren't obstructing your view while you search for the queen. (Put the spare box on the original site, so the flyers have some sort of temporary 'home'.)

If you have pulled some stores-blocked frames and given them some empty drawn comb, that may help, by giving the queen room to lay.

Or it might possibly be that a delayed mating hasn't worked too well, and they are trying to do a supercedure... but six cells does sound more like swarming than superceding.
Perhaps the first QC you saw was a supercedure attempt, you knocked it down and they got to work ...?

 

[Into the lions den]

Mid August and six cells, plenty of space, and not even at first bee hatch yet.....................would be very odd if it WAS swarming.

Suggest that they may have been trying to supercede the queen that took so long to mate, and in the meantime something has befallen her, so you also probably have emergency cells.

Bees lay perfectly well in comb that has previously held stores. At some stage of the season nearly all comb, including that of the summer nest, contains stores.

As for the problem colony? Leave one good cell and let them get on with it. Not much else to do if you think the queen is there but cannot find her unless you have a cell from a different strain you would prefer to insert. Attempts at queen introduction have a high chance of failure if you are unsure of the presence of a queen. Even if the poor queen IS there, and it IS swarming, then the swarm will leave with her and you have the chance of a better young queen after mating. Nature is the great cure all with bees.........problems do have a way of sorting themselves out.

( Not a recommendation btw..............controlled events rather than just letting things happen SHOULD have superior results.)

 

[Finman]

.
Like Lion says, the hive is unsatified with queen and they are going to change it.

But summer is short and it is better to bye a laying queen and stop the game.

 

[Beeyonce]

Thanks for your replies.

I think re-queening is the way to go and I've got a second pair of eyes lined up to help; these seem to be very swarmy bees as whilst it's never been settled since the beginning of the season my other colony has just got on with things quite happily. A real shame as despite all the ups and down they've produced an astonishing amount of honey....

 

[itma]

Did you knock down that first QC? (Before the 6 were created.)

The second box and those "other frames" you added - are they empty but drawn comb, foundation or well-filled with stores?

 

[Beeyonce]

I didn't knock down the first cell with the egg but thinking about it I may have damaged the edge a little as I was checking it; would this cause the bees to abandon it and make emergency cells? There was already sealed drone bood in place too.

The colony was on double brood as back at the beginning of May, just before the original queen swarmed in all that rotten weather, there were 11 frames of brood over the two boxes. This new queen had manged to lay up 7 frames in about 2 - 3 weeks, so when they get going, these ladies really go for it. The frames I put on yesterday to replace the others were drawn frames with just a little in the way of stores around the edge. Smacks of desparation, doesn't it?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Had a successful (ish) supersedure in one of our apairy colonies the last month - six cells the first time we opened (we left two) then another three next time. They didn't swarm. and there's no sign of QC's there now so either they changed their minds or she emerged and they've torn the rest down. larvae and sealed cells there now but we couldn't see eggs yesterday.

 

[itma]

I didn't knock down the first cell with the egg but thinking about it I may have damaged the edge a little as I was checking it; would this cause the bees to abandon it and make emergency cells? There was already sealed drone bood in place too.

... The frames I put on yesterday to replace the others were drawn frames with just a little in the way of stores around the edge. ...

If the original QC wasn't one of the six, then it sounds like that is what happened.

They might not swarm with extra laying space provided.
But if they were congested before you added the laying space, they might well still stay in swarm mode.

I think the six ought to be reduced to at most two open charged (and undisturbed - frame not shaken) cells.

But if you are intending re-queening very soon, I wonder if there might be a case for knocking them all down, and changing the queen in the next few days? (I'm thinking of the difficulty of finding and removing the virgin after emerging, assuming they haven't swarmed.)

 

[Beeyonce]

Thank you.

She looked like a little cracker when she went in, so very disappointing. I was hoping that with the extra pair of eyes I might be able to find her and do the terrible deed but keep the 6 cells intact until we do as a safety net....fingers crossed!

 

[itma]

I think re-queening is the way to go and I've got a second pair of eyes lined up to help ...

... I was hoping that with the extra pair of eyes I might be able to find her and do the terrible deed but keep the 6 cells intact until we do as a safety net....fingers crossed!

"Re-queening" -- what are you planning to do? I don't understand why you'd be keeping 6 QCs.

 

[Beeyonce]

I need to find the existing queen first and three runs through on Sunday was a failure. She's unmarked and even though the brood is essentially only over one set of frames there's a shed load of bees in there. I'm going to check later to see if giving them the newer frames has helped (wishful thinking?) but if not I've got a friend lined up to help me tomorrow. I also need to source a new queen; so I thought I'd keep a cell on there by way of an insurance policy and to stop further emergency queen cells. Is that the wrong thing to do?