Queen Cells.... again

[Alf20]

Hi,

Just need my knowledge to be re-checked here. I split a hive (AS) "old queen" is fine and hive is good and working. The Split hive had two QC made and as a result a New queen emerged. I know she has mated as there is brood, eggs good laying pattern (first signs of eggs were about 5 weeks after the queen emerged) BUT there are still new queen cells being produced. I on two different inspections tor down them but again new ones emerge! Does this mean that the queen is not as strong as the colony needs? and as a result the hive is working towards a supersedure?
Advice on next steps would be welcomed. Thanks in advance.

 

[tonybloke]

it certainly sounds like the bees aren't happy with the present queen, so I'd leave one cell and let them supercede
*caveat* if there is plenty of room for a queen to lay in the brood box

 

[richardbees]

Alf

We're now in August so swarming is highly improbable...it looks like they want a new Q so i'd leave them alone.

 

[Mike a]

Are the cells towards the centre of the combs or around the outside edges?

I've been caught out this year by two colonies building cells in the centre then they swarmed but its worth double checking just in case.

 

[biglongdarren]

this had happened to me a few times this year and last year,i knocked them out three or four times and in the end they stopped and all the queens were and still are laying flat out.
Darren.

 

[itma]

It would be more expected to see supercedure with the old queen's colony.

In the new queen's lot, I'd be concerned about swarming - particularly if 1/ the colony has lots of bees and 2/ there's little or no empty drawn comb for hmq to lay eggs in.
Weakening the colony by moving a frame of brood to the other hive and extracting a frame of stores (to give empty cells) might relieve the swarming pressure and might be enough of a dramatic change to achieve a 'reset'.

 

[Finman]

.
Splittings do not swarm in this time of year.

Bye a laying queen or join the splits. No time to do experiments.

 

[Into the lions den]

It would be more expected to see supercedure with the old queen's colony.

Yes, but its a very strange year. Supercedure cells on THIS years young queens is quite widespread. They were a long time mating and a number of them started supercedure almost right away.

Actually happens more often than the average beekeeper thinks. Generally once the new seasons queen is laying she gets left to her own devices, especially late season, and the fact this has taken place might not be noticed.

We are expecting a significant level of queen problems to develop over winter and for there to be a higher than normal level of drone layers and queenlessness in spring 2013, and already factoring that into our forward planning.

 

[Andy Duff]

It would be more expected to see supercedure with the old queen's colony.

In the new queen's lot, I'd be concerned about swarming - particularly if 1/ the colony has lots of bees and 2/ there's little or no empty drawn comb for hmq to lay eggs in.
Weakening the colony by moving a frame of brood to the other hive and extracting a frame of stores (to give empty cells) might relieve the swarming pressure and might be enough of a dramatic change to achieve a 'reset'.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Yes, but its a very strange year. Supercedure cells on THIS years young queens is quite widespread. They were a long time mating and a number of them started supercedure almost right away.

Actually happens more often than the average beekeeper thinks. Generally once the new seasons queen is laying she gets left to her own devices, especially late season, and the fact this has taken place might not be noticed.

We are expecting a significant level of queen problems to develop over winter and for there to be a higher than normal level of drone layers and queenlessness in spring 2013, and already factoring that into our forward planning.

Out of interest Murray, what's your policy on hives being found to have a DLQ? Do you attempt to re-Queen or do you show no mercy and empty them out?

 

[Into the lions den]

Out of interest Murray, what's your policy on hives being found to have a DLQ? Do you attempt to re-Queen or do you show no mercy and empty them out?

Depends on the circumstances and the timing. During the season, if it is strong and still has enough youngish bees then we would try to save it by killing the DL, and uniting with a nuc or giving a new queen, or, early enough (for mating and and fully establishing for winter) by putting in 2 or 3 bars of hatching brood (to keep it fresh and with a reasonable balance of bee ages) and a ripe queen cell.

Any other circumstances, especially in spring when its only a load of old bees and drones remaining the general policy is to have a quick run through and see if you can find the queen.......and if you do kill her. You write DL on the front and if you find and kill her you put a diagonal slash across the DL so the next visitor knows she is gone already. Then you can just reuse the hive to make a split when other colonies in the apiary are ready.

If you do NOT find her you just leave it marked DL until it is needed for a split. Then you take it about 20 yards away and shake all the bees out onto the grass, and use it for a split then (it actually becomes the new nest for the old queen on HER spot) and set the split up on a DIFFERENT stand from where the DL sat, just in case the DL returns and takes over.

Uniting a stale DL after killing the queen to a small hive in spring usually just results in a smallish colony anyway as the bees in the DL have often been around since autumn, and the strength collapses quickly once the pressure of spring kicks in, so it might seem like a boost for a smal colony, but unless the queen only gave out in spring, and thus has some not too aged bees, then its a nearly pointless exercise as the colony will have gone small again before the first brood of the expanded nest hatches. When you turf the bees out onot the grass most will try to get back to where they came from and in most circumstances will eventually be admitted to an adjacent colony.

To us DL or queenless colonies are counted as losses in our statistics, and saving them is, in many cases, non economic and frequently futile. A fresh split from a high achieving colony is a far better long term bet.

 

[gavin]

Just need my knowledge to be re-checked here.

As long as the split with the new queen is not congested (and therefore possibly swarmy) and you are sure that you are seeing charged queen cells rather than just empty cups, then control the suspected supersedure. Leave one cell and clip a wing of the resident queen to stop the possibility of her taking a swarm with her if she decides to go.

 

[Alf20]

always on the edge.

 

[Alf20]

Do i leave them to it? or tear down the QC?

 

[Haughton Honey]

Thanks for clarifying that Murray.

 

[itma]

Do i leave them to it? or tear down the QC?

I think that depends on whether or not the hive looks to have any reason to swarm. If you think there is plenty empty comb for laying eggs in and the amount of volume, comb and bees are reasonably balanced then you might judge it to be a likely supercedure.
But if you see conditions that could lead to swarming, it would be extreme optimism to hope that they wouldn't swarm

Since you haven't reported about those conditions, you won't get (or shouldn't get) categorical advice on what action to take. Other than to download and study that welsh queen cell booklet ...

 

[Alf20]

Volume of bees and area to lay are in balance, so i think it is a supercedure. Thanks for the advice.

 

[gavin]

Still worth trimming a wing of the established queen to prevent the loss of a swarm, and reducing the Q cells to one.

 

[richardbees]

Alf, if they don't look crowded I agree you should treat it as supercedure

(good advice from Gavin but maybe a bit too early in your beekeeping career to get the scissors out!).