Queen and supercedure cells

[Clemcook]

Hi,

Inspected my queen right hie today and unfortunately she has swarmed,. There are both swarm and supercedure cells present? What could this mean??

I've left a queen cell in the large hive and made up a nuc with the supercedure,

Many thanks
Clem

 

[Beefriendly]

Hi,
There are both swarm and supercedure cells present? What could this mean??

They are ALL swarm cells is what it means.

 

[Clemcook]

Okay thanks that's interesting

 

[Erichalfbee]

They are ALL swarm cells is what it means.

Yep.

 

[Beefriendly]

Okay thanks that's interesting

Why did you think some were supercedure cells?

 

[Clemcook]

Because of the positioning on the frame

 

[Beefriendly]

Because of the positioning on the frame

 

[Poly Hive]

Swarming and supercedure are two different impulses.

Swarm cells can be all over the frame. Sup cells "tend" to be in the middle.

There can be from a few (6 or so) to hundreds of swarm cells.

Sup cells tend to be in the 5 -10 range.

It's tricky at times to judge the sup situation but in my experience supercedure tended to be later in the season than swarming.

PH

 

[Clemcook]

Okay thank you everyone, they were all swarm then, she had tons of space I'm starting to wonder if this bloodline is just 'swarmy'

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

supersedure cells are usually very few, bees tend to position them at the extremities of the cluster where the queen seldom visits -as the cluster is three dimensional and basically spherical the edge of the cluster may well be at the side of the frame not just in the middle of the end one.
Bees 'tend' to put swarm cells at the bottom of the frame, but then again, I have seen just as many hives with ALL the cells ranged on or just under the top bar - what label do the books tell you they are?
as soon as a colony swarms you will also get the panic building of emergency QC's wherever the bees can find a suitable larvae so the labels in all the books goes out the window.
Basically, if the colony has swarmed by the time you inspect, they are all swarm cells regardless of where they are (I saw some clown not long ago profess that in the case where cells are found in the middle of the frame after swarming then the swarm was triggered by the bees building a supersedure cell and getting carried away!!)
If you inspect and there are QC's all over the place and the queen is still there - they are all swarm cells.
If you inspect, the queen is still present and there are just very few QC's in the classic 'supersedure position' they may be superseding, but then again they may be planning to swarm.
If you inspect, the queen is present and there is only one QC (or a couple, close together and the same age) The probability is they are trying to supersede.
But they may well swarm

 

[Clemcook]

Thanks !! She has gone, luckily I got there in time before all of the cells hatched and was able to send them out appropriately and make some more boxes up.

This has left me in the unfortunate position that I currently have three hives with virgin/unhatched queen's �� hopefully I will be lucky and have three cracking colony's at the end, her and her mother were fabulous layers, but they make it very difficult to keep up with because every year they throw out at least once warm threat, this particular hive was only created last August and she was laying wall to wall brood, this year they've actually followed through and buggered off

 

[masterBK]

Swarm cells tend to be on the extremities of the cluster where the queen rarely walks (as footprint pheromone from the queen inhibits the building of queen cells elsewhere). They tends to be constructed near the bottom bar (but could be near the side bars or near the top bar or in nooks and crannies where the comb has been damaged in the past ) Other clues : Swarm cells are numerous and of varying ages , there is a drop in laying ( you find that the queen is not laying many if any in the cells of emerging brood). The queen, if seen, is slimmer as the workers are not feeding her much.

Supersedure cells are few in number & well constructed and tend to be on the face of the comb although not always (rarely on the extremities as indicated by another poster). Up to a couple of years ago I only saw one or two supersedure cells per colony but then I found one with four. It is possible that workers move the eggs into supersedure cells (Winston).

Emergency cells : several usually of similar age on face of comb, obviously of worker cell origin, queen & eggs not present, queenless roar, bees edgy and bit more agressive

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

(rarely on the extremities as indicated by another poster).

I'm afraid I beg to differ, I should say that 90% + of the supersedure cells I have found have been on the outer edges of the cluster.
I'm talking from experience not something I have read in some vague book somewhere but 'approved' by the usual suspects.

 

[masterBK]

I'm talking from 59 years of personal beekeeping experience with over 20 colonies and with that number come across 3 or 4 cases of supersedure most years. Have taken several photographs to back my argument up (see previous post)

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm afraid I beg to differ, I should say that 90% + of the supersedure cells I have found have been on the outer edges of the cluster.
I'm talking from experience not something I have read in some vague book somewhere but 'approved' by the usual suspects.

I agree.
Supersedure cells I have found are indeed on the face of the comb but usually at the edge of the brood nest. Swarm cells indeed on any frame but at its edges.

 

[Clemcook]

Yes for reference, I had a mixture of both previously pictured

Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I agree.
Supersedure cells I have found are indeed on the face of the comb but usually at the edge of the brood nest. Swarm cells indeed on any frame but at its edges.

Indeed - and the face of the outsidemost comb is on the edge of the cluster. Unlike some on here who seem to think in two dimensions, that means that you will occasionally find supersedure cells tucked away in the gap bees sometimes make between the edge of the comb and the side bar - three times alone this year with early season supersedures.

 

[pargyle]

Indeed - and the face of the outsidemost comb is on the edge of the cluster. Unlike some on here who seem to think in two dimensions, that means that you will occasionally find supersedure cells tucked away in the gap bees sometimes make between the edge of the comb and the side bar - three times alone this year with early season supersedures.

Yes... Mine seem to like to put supercedure cells in the occasional gaps they leave between the side of the frame and the comb ... not easy to spot sometimes as they get built up with comb around them. Swarm cells are nearly always along the bottom of the comb or in the bottom third of the frame and very prominent.

 

[masterBK]

So the concensus seems to be with JBM. I think there has been a misunderstanding on my part as I was only thinking about whereabouts on the combs I find them not on which combs. I agree you rarely find them on the central combs of the cluster.

By the way did you like the photos (I have been taking photos of bees and beekeeping for many years and have a huge collection. Many of my pics have been used to illustrate books, leaflets and articles in beekeeping magazines).

I have attached a photo of queen cell for people to discuss

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Funnily enough, checked hive number 39 today - I suspected last time that the queen was failing, less and less brood each inspection, now down to three frames - lo and behold - on the last frame of brood - tucked on the side of the frame, a queen cell - but this time they've really made an effort to site it well.