Price of varroa treatment

[B+.]

If you do not have varroa tolerant bees... what is the cost of not treating?

Mytten da

If that question was directed at me, I would have to say the potential loss of your colony and a source of infestation to neighbouring colonies

 

[B+.]

i have studied genetics in university. That is why I understand about those things.

If you don't mind my asking Finman, when did you complete your degree?

 

[Plenty of honey]

I read from research. IT was explained there.

This is all very interesting and you guys on the forum have obviously been over this ground before. I would say the emerging underlying question here is "what would you say success in beekeeping is"
Whether your Commercial, a backyard beekeeper or just a couple of hives at the end of the garden ,we all have huge differing ideas of what success would be. I couldn't even imagine getting 200 kilos from one hive, Fin man was that really your harvest on one hive alone, if so, terrific but it does not necessarily mean if we will all repeat your success with the same set up, we know its all to do with getting the right amount of bees, in the right place at the right time.

And anyway, who's to say that the research that when it was done it was correct???. I am sure it probably was, but what about DDT, What about Neonics to name a few. Its so important that we all can be different and have different views on the subject, this evolution whichever way you look at it!!

 

[Finman]

if you don't mind my asking finman, when did you complete your degree?

1972 , I suppose

 

[Finman]

I couldn't even imagine getting 200 kilos from one hive, Fin man was that really your harvest on one hive alone, if so, terrific but it does not necessarily mean if we will all repeat your success!!

You have lots of hives. You surely know, that good yields come from pastures, not really from hives. Then you cannot put too many hives to share the nectar on the pasture.

.a good hive needs 6 weeks favorable weather to collect that 200 kg from single hive. 150 kg is not rare to achieve.

And the quell of nectar must be very near. If a hive must collect its yield over distance of 1 km, 50% will be lost for distance.

When I put my hives into different places, 3 fold difference is not rare. For example if weathers are hot and dry, summer rape hives nothing, but fireweed on moist soil gives 7 kg/day.

 

[Plenty of honey]

You have lots of hives. You surely know, that good yields come from pastures, not really from hives. Then you cannot put too many hives to share the nectar on the pasture.

.a good hive needs 6 weeks favorable weather to collect that 200 kg from single hive. 150 kg is not rare to achieve.

If a hive must collect its yield over distance of 1 km, 50% will be lost for distance.

When I put my hives into different places, 3 fold difference is not rare. For example if weathers are hot and dry, summer rape hives nothing, but fireweed on moist soil gives 7 kg/day.

I would agree with what you say, unfortunately none of our nectar flows last longer than 4 weeks here. I think thats where you've done so well and others can't believe your results.( i would say) Fair enough!
Distance is certainly a big issue, you really need to be amongst whatever your harvesting!!

 

[Finman]

.
Good flow is complex thing. Balance hive really shows the facts how it goes.

Day temps works with working hours. This summer basic days were cold. Bees need over 18C to work effectively. Mostly day reached that temp at midday and it lasted only 4 hours.

Couple years ago day temps were 25C. Balance hive brought about 5 kg a day.
Then temps rised up to 29C and hive brought 30% more..... Why, I asked...

When I went to read the balance, hive was still in good speed even if sun had went down. Temp was still 25C. Another dayI noticed that hive stops flying on the evening when temp drops to 18C.
During hot days working hours were even 14 hours.

That explains why it is hard to get yield from dandelion. Nights are here near zero. IT takes time that Air temp reaches critical foraging line 18C.
When dandelion blooms, Winter bees are dead, and new bees are not 3 weeks ild that they forage actual yield.
If I have 2 box wintered hives, they are able to get surplus dandelion honey. Small hives consume honey with enlargening brood.

June yield is often 50 kg. Small colonies get nothing. Most of that yield is raspberry.to get that they should have 1.5 month earlier one box full of brood, but it is not, because bees occupye only 5 frames.

But... Even if I have 10 box hive, and pasture is poor, hive gets nothing.

.

 

[buzzer2015]

The last time I treated my colonies was about 1993. I don't remember exactly. I feed nucs (those still in a single Langstroth deep at the end of July) enough syrup to build them up for winter but all established colonies support themselves. They receive no further help.
The most recent figure I can give you is winter 2014, in which I lost 0 colonies (although I lost 2 queens during introduction in July 2014). The results of my other tests have already been disclosed in the Queen Rearing and Breeding section.

For the sake of completeness, I should add that I lost 6 queens during introduction in August 2015 (the queens were held up by a postal strike in Germany so the nucs were queenless so long some of them developed laying workers)

I was of the thinking that if beekeepers did not treat then you will most certainly lose your bees come spring!

 

[B+.]

I was of the thinking that if beekeepers did not treat then you will most certainly lose your bees come spring!

People will tell you lots of things. Not all, of which, is true

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
― Marcus Aurelius

 

[buzzer2015]

People will tell you lots of things. Not all, of which, is true

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
― Marcus Aurelius

I agree but i haven't came across anyone who doesn't treat though i wouldn't know that many bee keepers so they could be wrong. I have a small nuc about to unite with another small nuc(1 frame of brood) and might consider not treating if its ok to do so.

 

[Cussword]

I agree but i haven't came across anyone who doesn't treat though i wouldn't know that many bee keepers so they could be wrong. I have a small nuc about to unite with another small nuc(1 frame of brood) and might consider not treating if its ok to do so.

Pargyle doesn't treat. If you cannot find Varroa, who is to say that you have to treat for it?

 

[buzzer2015]

Pargyle doesn't treat. If you cannot find Varroa, who is to say that you have to treat for it?

Pargyle?

I did have a look when i first got the bees and didn't see any mites but ive been advised, even thou you cant see them, they are still there.

 

[pargyle]

I agree but i haven't came across anyone who doesn't treat though i wouldn't know that many bee keepers so they could be wrong. I have a small nuc about to unite with another small nuc(1 frame of brood) and might consider not treating if its ok to do so.

There are several on here that do not treat automatically and I know of several in my area that are non-treaters .. one association member has been treatment free for over 7 years .. his winter colony losses are no greater or less than people in the same area that treat in a conventional way - and he has over 30 colonies and gathers a healthy honey crop.

But ... you have to be vigilant .. it's not as Finman would have it - 'Let Alone Beekeeping' .. if I saw signs of disease or lethargy and could attribute that to a heavy infestation of varroa then I would treat .. and my preferred treatment would be OA Sublimation. So far, my bees cope with varroa .. but I don't just rely on counting mites on the inspection floor .. I uncap drone cells and this year I have been doing sugar rolls (I have done alcohol washes in the past but I really don't like killing bees unnecessarily). The levels of varroa are very low in my colonies and for that reason I don't treat. It's not an easy option but don't believe all the tripe that's spouted about 'Your bees will die' .. they may die but that's a risk all beekeepers face .. the key in being treatment free is to know your bees and if you notice anything uncharacteristic then it's time to look further ...

There are other factors in my beekeeping that may or may not have a bearing on their ability to survive... I'm foundationless, I tend not to feed as long as my bees can find suffiicient forage to survive without feeding, I leave enough honey for them to overwinter on their honey stores and my hives are heavily insulated. I think the area in which the hives are situated also has a bearing on colony health ... and the strain of bees (most of mine originated from what I believe was a feral swarm that, for the first year and well into the second, were completely varroa free ...they are very sturdy, local, bees that fly in all weathers - I've never seen any brood disease (and yes Finnie - I do know what it looks like !).

And .. the biggest factor .. a large slice of luck.

So please don't think that 'not treating' is as simple as just 'not treating' ...

And lastly ..until you know enough about beekeeping to be confident that you can identify problems that may be varroa related ... it's safer to treat.

 

[Finman]

.
I have lost so much hives to varroa, that I give no value to those "do nothing" guys. They were enough on Beemaster forum.

In USA varroa tolerant bees have been really long time. Why varroa destroys hives more than ever. Reason is that beekeepers do not mind to treat hives.
.
And one reason is that varroa does not rule how I nurse my hives. I do not bees for varroa. And I do not even count them. I am not interested.

When I now put thymol pads into hives, I put a sheet of newspaper under the entrance. I can see then how much pepper dots will appear onto paper.

 

[pargyle]

.
I have lost so much hives to varroa, that I give no value to those "do nothing" guys. They were enough on Beemaster forum.
.

Predictable .... 'Do nothing' ? I wish it were that easy .. but as your hives are 100km away and you only visit them to steal every last vestige of honey I can understand that you are stuck on the treadmill of varroa treatment otherwise, as you point out, YOUR bees do die ....

 

[buzzer2015]

Predictable .... 'Do nothing' ? I wish it were that easy .. but as your hives are 100km away and you only visit them to steal every last vestige of honey I can understand that you are stuck on the treadmill of varroa treatment otherwise, as you point out, YOUR bees do die ....

100km away! Is this a joke?

 

[Finman]

Predictable .... 'Do nothing' ? I wish it were that easy .. but as your hives are 100km away and you only visit them to steal every last vestige of honey I can understand that you are stuck on the treadmill of varroa treatment otherwise, as you point out, YOUR bees do die ....

My hives are 150 km far away.
This year was really bad, but I steal honey on average 70 kg/hive .

"only visit to steal"..... That tells that you know nothing about beekeeping.

That is only a view point of "do nothing beekeeping".

It can be called Matthew 6:26 method: Look at a bird on sky...... And so on. Lord will take care your hives Amen! Yes, Lord has not enough to do in Universe than watch my hives.
.

 

[buzzer2015]

My hives are 150 km far away.
This year was really bad, but I steal honey on average 70 kg/hive .

"only visit to steal"..... That tells that you know nothing about beekeeping.

That is only a view point of "do nothing beekeeping".

It can be called Matthew 6:26 method: Look at a bird on sky...... And so on. Lord will take care your hives Amen! Yes, Lord has not enough to do in Universe than watch my hives.
.

How many times a month do you inspect them or do you have others to do this for you

 

[Finman]

100km away! Is this a joke?

I have studied and worked in Helsinki, in the centre of capital city. So it has been 48 years. My summer cottage is 150 km far away. It takes 2.0 hour to drive there. I have owned summer cottage 35 years.

Yeah....only visit to steal hives....

This year I had 4 hive unit in rape field. They each got 100 kg honey. It is 400 kg from one point. Yeah, hives went alone to the field and they returned by themselves back to home with they stores. That simple. Distance was only 17 km. Bees fly that in one hour.

.

 

[pargyle]

My hives are 150 km far away.
This year was really bad, but I steal honey on average 70 kg/hive .

"only visit to steal every last vestige of honey".....

.

You missed commenting on the important bit in my sentence.

You continually tell us that you take ALL the honey off your hives because 'Sugar is cheaper than honey'.

Is it any wonder that your bees are not healthy and need varroa treatment ?