Poly Hive's?

[oliver90owner]

I wonder what (if any) downsides that could bring? (Concentrating a lot of weight onto not much area of plastic?)

Thinking several supers, full of honey, onto the brood box, or even the floor of a completely poly set-up, so not an issue, really, most of the time. Agreed the load area will be halved, approx., but there are not often umpteen supers fitted and they are only on the one mating 'interface' surface which might likely be two storeys up, anyway.

Maybe there is no issue at all with the MB versions - what with the plastic edges to spread the load?

If you thought 3 supers over a 14 x 12 brood and a poly super, the load (per unit area) at the floor might not be so different to the load at the interface That would be 3 supers versus 5 1/2 equivalent, first on the smaller contact area and the secnd on twice that first area. So similar ball-park figures.

I daresay the mechanical compressive strength and deformity under load is a standard tested parameter and the manufacturers would be able to allay your fears, or otherwise.

Regards, RAB

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Do the plastic rails that MB supply make that much difference then? I assumed it made everything last longer less but with the downside you cant easily mix equipment.

As a begineer im more likely to make silly mistakes when scrapping etc with hive tool so the MB rail thingie might be better choice.......

 

[jakethedog]

But I didn't get the impression that you could put a wooden roof directly onto a poly super - so to use a wooden roof, it sounded like you'd need to have a wooden super on top of the stack.

Hi, that's the assumption which I too made when told that their boxes would take 11 frames (the inter changeability is based on the internal dimensions of the bs box which can only mean that the outside dimensions of the poly hive are greater than the wooden national).

My guess is that the interface (mating surface) between boxes must be pretty damn close to standard Nat. I wonder what (if any) downsides that could bring? (Concentrating a lot of weight onto not much area of plastic?)

I'm not sure that I follow this; PH has already advocated wooden supers as has Finnman in the past, neither of whom appear to have found problems with such a configuration. All I can imagine is that you're taking the view that the 'interchange' is in the thickness of the walls but I don't believe this will be the case. Not sure though.

 

[Poly Hive]

Let's see if I can shed some light here.

The issue is of course the thickness of the walls wich for poly are 40mm, and timber is usually 18mm. The ID is the same. The OD is not.

So, a poly brood needs a poly sized floor. A timber brood will fit a poly sized floor which can be made of wood as there is no great benefit to it being poly, but a poly brood will over hang a floor meant for a timber brood.

On top of the poly brood poly supers sit sweetly. Timber supers will also fit but need that wee bit more care to line them up.

When I mixed and matched I put on a poly super first to draw up the bees into the warmth, and subsequently added timber ones above.

Why MB were telling folks that you cannot add timber to poly beats me as I have been doing it for over 20 years, and if it was a sales pitch for poly supers it was frankly naughty.

PH

 

[itma]

...
On top of the poly brood poly supers sit sweetly. Timber supers will also fit but need that wee bit more care to line them up.
...

/Again my understanding from the phone call, not seen them ...

There was mention of something being done to stop water collecting on an exposed ledge where (for example) a wood super sits on top of a (thicker walled) poly BB. My presumption is that Pains have thinned the wall towards the top mating surface.
Simple compressive strength would be easily tested and is not my worry.
My concern was more for the durability of any thinner section, as being the most likely place to suffer damage.
Its the sort of thing we'll only discover in use.

Another detail that I was told is that their poly floor has an integral alighting board.

I've no need to rush to buy at this point, but thinking of migrating to 14x12 and plastic next year, its something I'd like to keep up with.


EDIT ADDED:
From the 'today in the apiary thread'

...
MM jumbo green feeder happily sitting on top of the MB poly BB - note to PH & ITLD the nationals have chamfered outer top edges and buttressed bottoms rather than the "offensive" raised lips found on the LS ones so normal national sized stuff fits fine.
...

Sounds like a similar idea, but iirc, the MB poly nats are top bee space ...

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Are the PBF langstroth's Swienty?

 

[Poly Hive]

I have never seen water getting in via a timber super sitting on a poly one. If someone is having that occur then something is wrong with the super. Most likely the wooden one would be warped.

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

It is more than it compromises the bee space if you mix them and they get severely messed up with ladder comb in the larger space between the boxes (where you put the lipped version on top of the standard flush version). Weight is pretty well never an issue with standard gear (5 to 6 *deeps* high is comonplace, have been up to 8, and no compression).......but the little half checks give rise to the need to both keep the same make of gear, and to be precise in placing it.

As stated by Poly Hive, the little lips make for serious issues with handling, as you just cannot get the hive tool in directly without already having managed to force some movement between the combs of the upper and lower boxes. This really slows you down a lot, and makes for greatly increased agitation of the bees. been there, never again. ( Rea-Dan polyurethane ones are similar........gee they were difficult to run against simple flush meeting boxes. Ditto the Wormit Commercial cited by Poly Hive..a true hive from hell.)[/COLOR]

Maybe there is no issue at all with the MB versions - what with the plastic edges to spread the load?

The plastic edges are not necessary. They primarily protect from impact damage and from serious misuse of the hive tool. The latter has proven to be a real non issue as you enter at the corners and a little compression makes the material even harder, and even after 14years hard commercial use none of ours have been seriously damaged by this cause.

I daresay the mechanical compressive strength and deformity under load is a standard tested parameter and the manufacturers would be able to allay your fears, or otherwise.

All the makers, Paradise Honey included, make good products that have stood the test of time. UK misgivings aboutt hese hives generally stems from preconceptions of the material based on knowledge of the low density soft material commonly seen here for packaging and insulation. Several years ago we tried to bring a mould into the UK to have the National and Smith boxes we still stock (and are sold retail by Wynne Jones) made here, but there were no plants in the UK that could produce to the density required. this may have changed, but I have seen some very poor grade poly materials used in the efforts of some companies to make UK size boxes. Boxes which would last a season or two at most and sold against the main makers, whose boxes will last a lifetime or more

Regards, RAB

..

 

[Finman]

.
I have bought my first boxes in 1988 (label in wall 1987).

They are all in good condition. Bees chew the a little and woodpecker make holes, but they are easy to repair with polyurethane glue.

A layer of paint will protect the surface from sun.

I have just bought tens of 20 years old polyboxes. They are like new.
The price was 6 euros per one Langstroth box. They will last as long as I keep bees.

In Paradise honey boxes special good is that its wall has not much thin places. Except the hand curves the wall is 3 cm thick.
In old models most of the wall were thinner,but compared to wood the insulation value is 10 times better than wood.

 

[Finman]

I have never seen water getting in via a timber super sitting on a poly one. If someone is having that occur then something is wrong with the super. Most likely the wooden one would be warped.

PH

I use simple wooden super on poly langstroths. No worry about water even if dimensions are different. I have a set up board to fit them together.

 

[oliver90owner]

ITLD,

Make no mistake, I am pro-poly. I only have the one new poly National on trial for it's first winter, but I am impressed so far. There are a couple of points I have noted so far which could be better but life is a compromise, and I accept that.

Those lips could easily be removed with a suitabe tool (probably a router) on the two sides (I will assess the 'slowed' operational problem next year); the top bee space suits me perfectly as all my kit is TBS so I should have no problems with mixing TBS and BBS components; the poly National from MB has the same outside dimensions as a the BS spec., the inner dimensions being reduced to ten frames from eleven (don't know about their Langstroths); the plastic strips on the MB are required, as the wall thickness is very much reduced at the end of the lugs (same as the timber version).

I am particularly evaluating them as a brood for the winter, so I have simply screwed on the floor of this one, so no problem for me with frames slightly longer than the body.

I am impressed with the Paradise Honey items and now have more than enough poly nucs from them (converted to 14 x 12). They may be rather more bulky (the extra length) but they are very robust and easy to carry, operate, etc. All I need really.

Regards, RAB

 

[drstitson]

"They may be rather more bulky (the extra length)"

Yes but you can still fit 3 in Smart car PLUS a wooden 5 frame LS nuc!!!!

(2+1 in boot, 1 in front).


Re wooden supers - agreed for handy folks and those with lots of hives then wood supers is probably the way to go

BUT

a cack handed hobbyist with no DIY tools and a couple of hives might as well buy the complete setup in poly in one go - the combined P&P costs will negate any savings as MB nat supers @ £17 are cheaper than cedar firsts and only £3.50-£4.50 more than seconds from TH or MM.

and of course having supers means you can AS to 14x12 using existing kit in a stack!!!!

 

[Onge]

ITLD,

Make no mistake, I am pro-poly. I only have the one new poly National on trial for it's first winter, but I am impressed so far. There are a couple of points I have noted so far which could be better but life is a compromise, and I accept that.

Those lips could easily be removed with a suitabe tool (probably a router) on the two sides (I will assess the 'slowed' operational problem next year); the top bee space suits me perfectly as all my kit is TBS so I should have no problems with mixing TBS and BBS components; the poly National from MB has the same outside dimensions as a the BS spec., the inner dimensions being reduced to ten frames from eleven (don't know about their Langstroths); the plastic strips on the MB are required, as the wall thickness is very much reduced at the end of the lugs (same as the timber version).


I am particularly evaluating them as a brood for the winter, so I have simply screwed on the floor of this one, so no problem for me with frames slightly longer than the body.

I am impressed with the Paradise Honey items and now have more than enough poly nucs from them (converted to 14 x 12). They may be rather more bulky (the extra length) but they are very robust and easy to carry, operate, etc. All I need really.

Regards, RAB

If this photo works you can see the lip runs all the way around and taking it off would upset the bee space, fit of the roof and other boxes.

This is why I did not go for them and the fact that you can not mix and mach with wood or different manufacturers.

 

[herefordshirehoney]

I'm confused which one to go for now !

 

[Teemore]

ITLD et al,
Can you tell me whether the poly National Hives currently listed in Swienty's catalogue use frame runners or do the frames just sit on the rebates in the hive walls?

If they do not use frame runners, do you find that this makes hive inspections noticeably more difficult? (I'm thinking of propolis build up as the season progresses.)

I am currently trialling an MB poly national and really like the way the bees have built up in it (July Nuc) My criticisms of the product would largely mirror those already posted but I have to say that I would consider buying more of their brood boxes. As I have posted elasewhere, my experience of poly hives so far been favourable and has prompted the purchase of a couple of poly 14x12s for next year (Probable early shook swarms to get colonies onto the larger frames...)

 

[Finman]

Paradise honey sells 2 modells, with lips and the old one, no lips.
The box size is international standard. A Danish company made same size of boxes 20 years ago.

I called to Paradise honey owner and he said that they have send all variation modells to UK markets.

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Just found this thanks to finman =) - http://bit.ly/qCorrS

 

[Finman]

.
I use only poly boxes.
I make my self roofs and bottom boards. I get so much recycling wood board that no harm to use own table saw. It takes time but costs nothing.

100 euros table saw is splended in DIY works.

 

[drstitson]

a wooden LS box will happily sit on the raised lip of the MB LS hives - it is the same footprint as standard 500x415 QEs etc.

if really desperate one could make a framed QE that fitted over the lip with chamfered outer edge.


to add to the list of pros and cons - the MB upturned lid and travel screen arrangement is good for (very) long journeys. I do however gaffer tape the screen ends before adding the roof and strapping together.

 

[oliver90owner]

Onge,

At post #61, I replied in a general way to the loading issue. I did use a 14 x 12 as an example to make my point.

ITLD responded (post #68) quoting parts of my post and mentioned the lip. Well the lip on my National poly supers may be different from the Langstroths, and my reply was to him fairly specifically. On my supers, I could, should I need, machine off part of the lip, which overhangs the box beneath, to allow me to get a better purchase with the hive tool when separating them. The box dimensions are 460 x 460 at the top but about 485 x 485 at the bottom. That extra was what I was referring to in my post in reply to ITLD's comments (he mentioned the bee space and lip problems, not me).

I realise this is predominantly a Langstroth thread and I clearly have National format.

To me polyhives are all those made of HDEPS and I know there are several differnt variations. But I can, with my supers, machine off (only part) the lip (with no alteration to the beespace). It may be a modification next year. Your Langstroths probably are different. Only seen one of them and that was over 2 years ago!

RAB