Poly Brood plus Cedar Supers

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Assemble,(and glue)

What's with this gluing mullarkey - the bees do all the gluing that's needed

 

[northbee]

I love working with wood but hate the repetitive nature of it of building frames.

Should be like excel. Do it once, drag and drop. Voila - 500 frames.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

3D printer and plastic frames may be.

 

[user 6228]

Yes, thank you, believe we covered this at O level many moons ago. It's one thing having a theory....it's a different matter to prove it. In no scenario to date has anyone actually analysed the situation in situ when bees are present in wood or poly. i.e it's conjecture whether bees ripen honey better in poly than in wooden supers.
How do the laws of thermodynamics explain a warm air current, strong enough to blow a candle out, emanating out at one side of the hive entrance (solid floors) during hot weather?

Combination of : advection: There is an engine burning sugars driving an impeller
Natural convection: the buoyancy of O2/N2/h20/CO2 at elevated temperature compared to ambient.

Its not conjecture that a wooden hive loses heat at a faster rate for any given internal and external temperatures. (proven by experiment on real hives)
Its not conjecture that it takes considerable amount of heat to evaporate a dilute solution of sugar to a concentrated solution. (proven by experiment)
its not conjecture that the honey bees ripen honey at temperatures above ambient. (proven by experiment)
Its not conjecture that energy is conserved. - Proven
heat input = heat losses + change of state - proven
Heat input = evaporation+larvae protein formation + losses

now the change of state is changing nectar in to honey and changing pollen into larval protein.

But hang on a second the energy input is from both nectar and pollen.
So larvae protein formation isn't a big factor in the energy demand on nectar at all. In fact the pollen counts as net heat input to the nest.

ITs not conjecture: Going from wood to poly the heat that now isnt lost must go somewhere, it either evaporates more water or the temperature goes up.
The temperature cant keep going up otherwise they will die. So they either turn down the heat generation or increase the honey convertion. either way that's more honey per unit nectar

Its not conjecture: The Experimental and anecdotal observations of honeybees in insulated hives is that they produce more honey on the same pastures.

Note: entrance fanning or entrance convective heat losses are miniscule something like one 1/10000 of the conductive or evaporative heat absorption. The big effect in the process of nest cooling with entrance fanning is moving water vapour out of the hive

Thats not conjecture! Honey bees can move of the order of 1litre/second through the entrance, which given the heat capacity of air, at a temperature difference of 10C, is about 0.01W.
That litre/second flow can contain a 35mg/second flow of water vapour. This needs 84W to evaporate it...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Combination of : advection: There is an engine burning sugars driving an impeller
Natural convection: the buoyancy of O2/N2/h20/CO2 at elevated temperature compared to ambient.

Its not conjecture that a wooden hive loses heat at a faster rate for any given internal and external temperatures. (proven by experiment on real hives)
Its not conjecture that it takes considerable amount of heat to evaporate a dilute solution of sugar to a concentrated solution. (proven by experiment)
its not conjecture that the honey bees ripen honey at temperatures above ambient. (proven by experiment)
Its not conjecture that energy is conserved. - Proven
heat input = heat losses + change of state - proven
Heat input = evaporation+larvae protein formation + losses

now the change of state is changing nectar in to honey and changing pollen into larval protein.

But hang on a second the energy input is from both nectar and pollen.
So larvae protein formation isn't a big factor in the energy demand on nectar at all. In fact the pollen counts as net heat input to the nest.

ITs not conjecture: Going from wood to poly the heat that now isnt lost must go somewhere, it either evaporates more water or the temperature goes up.
The temperature cant keep going up otherwise they will die. So they either turn down the heat generation or increase the honey convertion. either way that's more honey per unit nectar

Its not conjecture: The Experimental and anecdotal observations of honeybees in insulated hives is that they produce more honey on the same pastures.

Note: entrance fanning or entrance convective heat losses are miniscule something like one 1/10000 of the conductive or evaporative heat absorption. The big effect in the process of nest cooling with entrance fanning is moving water vapour out of the hive

Thats not conjecture! honey bees can move of the order of 1litre/second as measured experimentally through the entrance which given the heat capacity of air at a temperature difference of 10C is about 0.01W. Compare to giv
That litre/second flow can contain 35mg/second flow of water vapour which has needed 84W to evaporate it...

But you have yet to prove that bees ripen honey better in poly than wood.

 

[user 6228]

But you have yet to prove that bees ripen honey better in poly than wood.

so how does ITLD's bees get more than 20% extra honey in poly hives on the same pasture then?
Poly hive bees has a secret stash of nectar? - not in any of the hives I 've seen
The polystyrene turns them into super bees that can turn back time so they can fetch more nectar? - we are not living in a marvel comic
The polystyrene makes the bees fly 20% faster? - No they would actually use more fuel
The polystyrene aids their digestion so they get the last extra bit out of the nectar that they were wasting in wooden hives. So they would inwooden hives be excreting at least 20% of the sugars as undigested I think that one would have been found by now.

 

[Beefriendly]

But you have yet to prove that bees ripen honey better in poly than wood.

Well spotted Sir....
He has numerous equations based on numerous assumed assumptions but no experimental evidence to back the assumptions up.

 

[user 6228]

Well spotted Sir....
He has numerous equations based on numerous assumed assumptions but no experimental evidence to back the numerous equations up.

NigelP
You were obviously asleep when they taught basic physics ( the first year in secondary school) as well as the maths, where you also missed the lessons on deductive proof.
and your PHD failed to teach you to read the references
Villumstad did the experiments long ago. He got a result. go read it.

 

[Beefriendly]

Thats not conjecture! honey bees can move of the order of 1litre/second as measured experimentally through the entrance which given the heat capacity of air at a temperature difference of 10C is about 0.01W. Compare to giv
That litre/second flow can contain 35mg/second flow of water vapour which has needed 84W to evaporate it...

I think the above gives an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Gibberish of the highest order.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Obfuscation of an advanced level.

As an old tutor of mine once said - when you are struggling to prove your case, try baffling them with bullsh!t

 

[user 6228]

I think the above gives an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Gibberish of the highest order.

I have corrected the typo and the punctuation.

Thats not conjecture! Honey bees can move of the order of 1litre/second through the entrance, which given the heat capacity of air, at a temperature difference of 10C, is about 0.01W.
That litre/second flow can contain a 35mg/second flow of water vapour. This needs 84W to evaporate it from the liquid state.

 

[user 6228]

Obfuscation of an advanced level.

As an old tutor of mine once said - when you are struggling to prove your case, try baffling them with bullsh!t

So you didnt understand the lecture I gave in person then. You were just blowing smoke?

 

[Murox]

....................................... not conjecture that energy is conserved. - Proven heat input = heat losses + change of state - proven. Heat input = .......................ITs not conjecture: Going from wood to poly the heat that now isnt lost must go somewhere, it either evaporates more water or the temperature goes up.
The temperature cant keep going up otherwise they will die. So they either turn down the heat generation or increase the honey convertion. either way that's more honey per unit nectar

Its not conjecture: The Experimental and anecdotal observations of honeybees in insulated hives is that they produce more honey on the same pastures......................

So how thick does, lets say Cedar, or perhaps Balsa, need to be to achieve a similar degree of insulation to, lets say, an Abelo poly hive ? Clearly density plays a part, but "ballpark" figures ?

 

[Beefriendly]

so how does ITLD's bees get more than 20% extra honey in poly hives on the same pasture then? .

This is a case of drawing the wrong conclusion from an observation.
You get more honey in poly hives for the simple reason you have more bees than in wooden hives due to an increased spring build up in poly hives
Not because they can evaporate water faster from the nectar, fly faster etc etc.
It's basic biology.

 

[Finman]

.
You get more honey from polyhives because spring build up is faster. In warm boxes bees can do bigger brood area.

If you have wooden supers on poly broods, I cannot understand how wooden boxes can drop the yield.

 

[Anduril]

Then we have ITLD https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=513039&postcount=93

 

[Poly Hive]

There are some who are so blind no evidence will change their minds.

If you have a limited number of poly supers put them on first as I found over a number of years with 50+ colonies that the bees went up into poly a lot faster than timber.

Keep in mind this was a lot further north than most of you are located so the effect for you might not be as obvious.

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The argument isn't whether bees produce more honey in poly compared to wood (a totally separate argument which has been aired elsewhere) but whether there is a

reduction in honey ripening efficiency

Thus far noone has presented any data or facts to support that 'theory'

There are some who are so blind no evidence will change their minds.

And some so blinkered they cannot be bothered to back up their theories or realised that there are bees in the equation.

 

[Poly Hive]

I have no theories that I am aware of. I leave that to the clever people.

I rely on practical experience.

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I rely on practical experience.

PH

pity others don't

 

[Finman]

.
I rely on an advice, that nectar storing needs much room (boxes), that bees can spread wet nectar as a thin layer. Thick layer dryes up slower. That is why capped honey box is better to extract than keep in the hive. But take care. Super crystallizes easily outside the hive if you do not extract it soon.

But that "dry up energy" I let the bees do it. I can not optimize it.

I look from number of ventilating bees, is the ventilation enough.. If I add too much ventilation, hive will be too cold. Bees drive moisture out, it is not barely heat what they drive out. ... Bees know that better than me.