Overwintering poly nuc

[REDWOOD]

\Or just sheer devilment

probably just meddling

 

[Finman]

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I remember well, when I started to keep bees in polyhives after wooden boxes, water problems inside the hive were very different. But only way is to make a new style of floor, which move water outside the hive.


BUT AMERICAN beekeepers, who keep themselves very experienced, say that they use dry sugar above frames on newspaper, which absorb the water which respiration releases. It is sure mantra there.

Lets calculate. If sugar has 20% moisture, it is liquid. It goes down.

What about 10% moisture. Lets hope that it stays on top bars.

We have 20 kg winter food and it produces 67% water in glycolysis.

- 20 kg food produces 13 kg water

- If 10% water can go into sugar without problems, 13 kg water needs
130 kg sugar to handle the moisture problem.

Well....130 kg dry sugar on the top bars that you may feed 20 kg sugar to bees.

I opinion is that if you are a beekeeper, try to use your brain however.

And even if you feel collective pressures in "beekeeping myths", try to use your brains however.


But remember, bees has been be kept very well even by persons who has a modest brain capacity.
Reality is not so complex as mind can do it.
.

May Brain Be With You

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[MuswellMetro]

I'm surprised the bees don't propolise the gap made by the drawing pins.
Some of mine propolise everything, even filling the gap between the frame lugs and the side of the BB

yerr,tellme about it,

A Bee inspector asked me, what % of frame i replace a year, and i replied 25% normally but on these propolising bees, it is dependent on how many frames I break opening up after Winter

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I overwintered a poly nuc last year, bees not only survived but went on to be one of my strongest colonies this year. I did not insulate the poly box in any way, just used it as it was.

I did notice however that poly nucs are prone to collecting condensation under the plastic cover that sits between the frame tops and the lid. I am overwintering another nuc this winter, but have replaced the plastic "quilt" with a glass one, raised by four drawing pins at each corner. Have found this stops the condensation problem.

Good luck

As a newbie, I am sitting out the forum for a while due to the level of animosity and tension: as I said, I do not want to see what it looks like in winter. It's got better in some corners but this thread is cruel. People, please! Have some kindness. We are custodians of a fascinating species and are all faced with the challenge of getting them through winter. The "bet he doesn't get to ten" quip was open to interpretation; that Raf will no longer be a beek, or that s/he will be scared off. I'm not sure which I "prefer". And in tearing him/her a new one "epic, epic fail", we are leaping to all sort of conclusions. Try this interpretation. Glass is cold (as though 1/4mm of plastic is warm, hah!) but rigid. There is room in a P@ynes poly nuc to raise the plastic crownboard a bit inside the roof. Massive prop risk of course, but that's not the objection, and the room is a full beespace so map pins were a fine idea, it turns out. That will move the condensation to the roof, thence the top of the glass thence a corner and down the side of the nuc (where, I accept, there is a danger is passes through the cluster). Far better than under the plastic.
<ADD>Actually, it might well fall out of the roof seam</ADD>

 

[Little John]

to get heat to go downwards it has to be one of
1)warmer liquid/ or solid falling from hive,
2)conduction from stand
3)radiation down wards
4) gas denser than air (CO2)

5) actively expelled from the bottom of hive (at the expense of energy) by bees, in the form of warm air, in order to rid themselves of excess moisture, which could - had the insulation not been so efficient - have been passively removed by condensation against a cold surface. This activity only being possible when the colony is not clustered.

Which is why hive dynamics are more properly the province of biology, and not physics.

LJ

 

[Little John]

As a newbie, I am sitting out the forum for a while due to the level of animosity and tension

Tell me about it ...

Try this interpretation. Glass is cold (as though 1/4mm of plastic is warm, hah!) but rigid. There is room in a P@ynes poly nuc to raise the plastic crownboard a bit inside the roof. Massive prop risk of course, but that's not the objection, and the room is a full beespace so map pins were a fine idea, it turns out. That will move the condensation to the roof, thence the top of the glass thence a corner and down the side of the nuc (where, I accept, there is a danger is passes through the cluster). Far better than under the plastic.
<ADD>Actually, it might well fall out of the roof seam</ADD>

Or - with a bit of tinkering - out of the sides:

This was in the British Bee Journal back in April 1880. For a hive rather than a NUC, sure. It's one of those ideas I intend to try 'one day'. The only modification that I can see is warranted, is rather than poking a horizontal gutter out of the sides, make it with a slight incline, then feed the lower end into a shallow 'U-tube' trap, before exiting the hive side.

I'd suggest using this, except on the very coldest of days (when heat retention is undoubtedly more important than moisture removal - in the short term), when an insulating cover could be placed over the top to keep the 'cold plates' warm.

'Dynamic beekeeping' according to the weather ? Now - there's a thought ...

LJ

 

[Finman]

.
Originally Posted by derekm View Post
to get heat to go downwards it has to be one of
1)warmer liquid/ or solid falling from hive,
2)conduction from stand
3)radiation down wards
4) gas denser than air (CO2)


f someboby want to be more impractical, just try, but try hard

The Scotch did 2 weeks ago in Helsinki city centre

5 men, who had winter clothes, one had fur hat ...but all had scottish quilt and bare legs. Out temp was under 10C.

But what I (we) can say is

- scottish quilts were mini style skirt
- no socks
- that fur hat does not keep legs warm (compare inner cover insulation and mesh floor)
- condesation water drills easily down in the park
- quilted jacket do not keep human warm
- cool legs phenomenom becomes from heat radiation and wind
- guys got warm views
- no winter losses (so far, if not family happiness)



Why women's skirt is half shorter than men's

 

[drstitson]

little john - that feeder/condenser is a bit like my gadget - allows convection down sides of hive and space to feed (NB has a solid box of kingspan clamped on top in use).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

this thread is cruel.

?!?!

I must be reading a different thread then - a bit direct in parts maybe, but all I could see is good advice and reasoned debate/discussion (and a bit of a dummy spitting moment from the OP, but that was OK and just aired his opinion in a sl;ightly different way).
it is a forum so people do have different styles in presentation, you have to accept that. A few weeks ago it was violent I agree but now, a tad over sensitive?

 

[pargyle]

?!?!

I must be reading a different thread then - a bit direct in parts maybe, but all I could see is good advice and reasoned debate/discussion (and a bit of a dummy spitting moment from the OP, but that was OK and just aired his opinion in a sl;ightly different way).
it is a forum so people do have different styles in presentation, you have to accept that. A few weeks ago it was violent I agree but now, a tad over sensitive?

Yep ... pretty restrained at the moment from my perspective ... I've been reading this thread with some interest.

I have a 6mm thick polycarbonate crown board which I changed from 5mm plywood a few weeks ago .. it is a noticeably better insulator than the ply - I didn't measure the change in temperature above the crown board but it was very clearly much warmer to the touch above the crown board when the ply CB was in place, so less heat escaping through the 6mm polycarbonate. I've not seen any condensation at all on the new crownboard - even when opening the lid of the hive.

My long hive has a mesh floor covering the entire bottom of the hive so it's 1200mm x 415mm in size - but, I have a drawer with my sticky board beneath it so there's 2" or so of protected space beneath the mesh. The area of the hive not currently populated is full of insulation.

I've been measuring the temperature at the mesh floor and so far it is consistently one degree higher than the air temperature outside the hive but up to 10 degrees less than the colony temperature at the top of the frames. So there's at least a 10 degree drop in temp between the top and bottom of the hive.

I assume that some of the heat generated by the bees inside the box does get down as far as the mesh floor to give it the 1 degree increment above the external air temp.

I was a little worried that a piece of mesh that size would act as a heat sink (or cold sink really) when the external temperature starts to fall but I will be monitoring the three temperature measurements as winter progresses and if it appears to be a problem I can actually close the bottom of the hive up completely and limit the amount of bottom ventilation by closing up some of the ventilation holes at the bottom of the hive.

Worst case is the colony temp starts to fall below optimum survival temps and I have 12v heaters ready to give them a bit of central heating if that happens ...

Should be an interesting winter ... if this thread is anything to go by ..

 

[user 6228]

5) actively expelled from the bottom of hive (at the expense of energy) by bees, in the form of warm air, in order to rid themselves of excess moisture, which could - had the insulation not been so efficient - have been passively removed by condensation against a cold surface. This activity only being possible when the colony is not clustered.

Which is why hive dynamics are more properly the province of biology, and not physics.

LJ

what expelled ? if air and warm it will go upward out of the entrance it cant melt snow on the ground directly.
how expelled by the bees ?
if air i dont hear any fanning on cold non ivy days.
i dont think the bees are carrying water away.

i think your conclusion is a non - seqitur

 

[Finman]

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It would be different to draw conclusions, if outside temps would be -10C and you open the cover.
Then you could see, how humid air makes snow like forms in certain parts of the hive.
You see wet condensation places too.

- rime tend to be first in inside corners. (not side walls)
- if cold continues, rime fills quite much free spaces inside the hive.
- upper entrance is stucked with rime, or there are condensation droplets
- the roof panel, which is near the upper entrance, has black mold because warm air rises up from entrance
- if there are air leaks between box and cover, condensations exist there and there are rime formulation.

- lower parts of frames are the most cold surfaces in the hive, because they are near entrance and they are the lowest.
- Coldest and lowest is of course the floor.
- ice sticks are hanging in lower frame bars
- there is thick ice on bottom board

If you measure the interrior of the hive, - even through the inner cover -, you find big temperature gradients inside the hive. 25-14-8-> minus..

There are not much air inside 40 litre langstroth box. There are thick food frames and air is between frame gaps..
Bees do not form uniform cluster in the hive. Bees have individual seems, but they are many inside the empty cells too.
If food is finish in one seem, and air is cold, it does not let the bees move to another seem, and the slice of bees will starve out.

When weather is mild, the cluster rearrange again and collect itself together.
That is why long frost periods are more dangerous than few extremely cold nights.
During mild days frost and ice stick melts away. Water drills out and it seems like nothing has happened.



So the cluster is not a ball hanging in the box air. And the cluster cannot radiate heat through the combs.
.

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[Alabamaeee]

Finman,

I have read many of your posts in this form and respect your knowledge,especially the years of experience with Poly hives.

At the risk of starting a "oh no not OMF debate again" thread I'd nevertheless like to ask you...

In Finland with it's extremely cold winters do beekeepers overwinter their colonies with the OMF open or closed off?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Spoke to a Finnish beekeeper a few months ago over here studying for her degree (Bee related) She, and a lot of other beeks she knows keep the OMF open all year.

 

[Finman]

Finman,

In Finland with it's extremely cold winters do beekeepers overwinter their colonies with the OMF open or closed off?

Beeks here use OMF open and closed and solid floors.

It has been huge debating here too, that mesh floor is modern and solid floor is "history". And floor debating was before mesh floor was found here via polyhives.

As long as I have nursed bees, floor is a huge debating object.
But my opinion is that the floor does not bring honey not a gram.

Another debating is about inner cover structure and insulation. Guys are mad in their issues,

But what guys are not able to talk about is honey pastures. Pastures are the centre point of beekeeping but guys are silent like a piss in the sock.

Another thing, what beeks do not understand is the importance of heat to the build up. Beek are broud that hive survive withoput protection and in cold conditions.

Mostly beeks are not very clever in those things what they are doing. Average age, 58, is one reason.
Under age 30 y old beekeeper is rare.

.

.

 

[Little John]

what expelled ? if air and warm it will go upward out of the entrance it cant melt snow on the ground directly.
how expelled by the bees ?
if air i dont hear any fanning on cold non ivy days.
i dont think the bees are carrying water away.

i think your conclusion is a non - seqitur

Eh ?

I have said in the past that beekeeping is more properly the province of biology than physics. But I will take this criticism one step further and say that beekeeping is more properly the province of beekeepers, and not scientists of any discipline.

My reasoning is based on observations of the religious manner in which science is conducted in practice - being centred around the principle belief that experimentation can yield truth.

But in order to make them manageable, such experiments are invariably of the single-variable form, that being a technique in which just one known variable is changed, and it's function recorded. If, upon subsequent analysis, there appears to be a correlation between variable and function, then theories are proposed, and even laws duly formulated.

Now this methodology has worked extremely well in the fields of physics and chemistry in the past - examples such as 'Boyle's Law' spring readily to mind - but as any biologist will tell you, even the simplest of biological experiments tend to produce somewhat mixed results. In order to 'fudge' this annoyingly recurring phenomenon, biologists resort to using mathematical tools in order to generate assessments of 'probability', whereas the source of these 'experimental errors' (as they have come to be known) actually lie in the multiple variables which exist within any biological system.

But even having said this, scientists (and yes, I used to be one myself) tend to be a cautious bunch, who do not readily draw conclusions ahead of the analysis of results (even when pressed by others to do so), and would certainly never dream of suggesting radical changes in anyone's behaviour whilst their experiments were still being conducted.


I am the first to agree that there is some merit in insulating hives, but to describe beehive dynamics as 'simple physics' is extremely misleading. It would be more accurate, I think, to describe the situation as one of complex biology.

The beehive, especially during autumn and winter, is an environment within which (at least) two dynamics are in play: the first is indeed that of heat retention, but the other is that of moisture removal - and the unfortunate reality is that these dynamics are in opposition to each other. Which is why I have commented in the past that bees may have survived despite living in tree nests, rather than because of them.

Michael Bush explains the problem with ventilation (being of course central to moisture removal) thus:

"Bees seem to have more trouble ventilating a vertical hive with no vent at the top. They have to force dry air (which wants to go down) up to the top and hot moist air at the top (which wants to go up), back down and out the bottom. It's sort of like walking 20 miles to school, uphill both ways. So a top vent or top entrance in a vertical hive seems to be very helpful as it allows the hot moist air out the top which sucks the dry air in the bottom. With a horizontal hive, this is not an issue. They just move the air in a circular fashion in one side and back out the other side and out the door. Sort of like a nice level walk with no hills. This seems to work well. With cross ventilation (such as a front and back vent or entrance) the wind may blow through the hive and that may be a bad thing. http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm "

Indeed, a horizontal hive with an OMF makes life even easier for moisture removal.

A comparison of the energy requirements for moisture removal vs. heat retention is far from straightforward, but to give some idea of the Herculean task faced by bees each year, the amount of water to be removed from a typical National hive is in the order of 6 UK gallons. [calculations edited-out for brevity] And how much energy is expended in shifting that amount of water ? I haven't a clue, but I know that it will be a lot. Unless of course, the hive has some upper ventilation.

Beekeeping practices are indeed always 'local'. I used to live on the side of a mountain in North Wales where it was either very wet or dry - but never damp. But - my current location is some 9 inches above sea level, where the water table is often only a foot below the surface in winter, and damp is by far the greatest problem to be faced.

ROB Manley comments:

"Damp is the greatest winter enemy that bees have in Britain, I believe, and I may point out here that the period when damp does the mischief is a fairly long one which very often lasts almost four months. I reckon that the year is roughly divided into two parts; eight months when the air dries up moisture faster than it is deposited, and four months during which moisture accumulates. This last four months usually begins about the middle of October. Clear, dry, frosty weather is good for bees so that the temperature does not fall abnormally low for this country; but damp, cold, especially when accompanied by fog, is very bad, and a good circulation of air through every apiary should be our aim. But exposure to direct wind is to be avoided as a plague."

"In damp places it is necessary to employ another method. Of course it is far better not to keep bees in places that are not exactly right, but needs must when the devil drives, and bee farmers find themselves driven that way more often than is exactly convenient. So if you have bees so situated, take a lot of bits of wood one-eighth of an inch thick, or less, section wood will do, or matchsticks, or even some two-inch wire nails, place one of these small objects under each corner of the inner cover, and your hives will usually keep dry enough. This question of dissipation of the moisture thrown off by the bees is a very important one; much more so, I believe, than packing and double-walled hives, for in my opinion bees do not need to be insulated, packed or cockered up in any way in Britain. After all, they winter perfectly well in chimneys, roofs, and all sorts of cold, draughty places. I remember one lot in an old pollard willow when I was beginning to take an interest in bees. The combs were all of four feet long, the tree was split from top to bottom, and the combs could be seen in half a dozen places. It had been there for many years, the farm men said, and might have been there much longer had I not come along.
Again, I saw some of Madoc's hives in Norfolk one winter, when woodpeckers had made large holes. In some cases the holes were big enough to put your fist into, and the clustered bees could be seen through them, but the bees wintered all right, I believe. I have seen bees come through the winter well when housed in old cracked boxes that were about as airtight as a colander, which brings me to another matter: the dressing of hives. Honey Farming, ROB Manley, 1945"

These marked differences in approaches to beekeeping are due to Derekm's theories being based around a single physical parameter (to the exclusion of any others), whereas Bush and Manley are basing theirs on hard-won experiential knowledge gained over decades, and a lifetime, respectively.

LJ

 

[farbee]

This tread worries me as some of my bees are on a very damp site. Could it be that some ventilation is required in damp sites or does the top insulation still apply. As the last post says I am looking for practical experiences here rather than academic debate (although that is very interesting).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This tread worries me as some of my bees are on a very damp site. Could it be that some ventilation is required in damp sites or does the top insulation still apply. As the last post says I am looking for practical experiences here rather than academic debate (although that is very interesting).

Top insulation, no gaps, holes in crown board, OMF floor as it says on the tin (OPEN ) and the hive raised a reasonable amount off the ground and there shouldn't really be a problem

 

[Finman]

Eh ?



Indeed, a horizontal hive with an OMF makes life even easier for moisture removal.LJ

The hive cavity gives a warm, weather protection to bees. That is the whole idea of surviving Apis mellifera ion summer and in winter

Asian bee Cerana prefer to live without shelter. In Japan only 20 % of cerana bees live in cavity.

To live in cavity where one side is missing?

Horizontal hive should not make any difference with vertical hive, because wintering room should be reduced according the cluster size.
Even big hive can winter in 10 frame langstroth box, and I am very sure that long hove colony doe not need more room than good vertcal hive.

And you may cover the mesh in autumn. No one foce it to be open.

To transfer moisture from hive.....it is not a problem when you take care about it and follow the experienced beekeepers knowledge in the area.

Moisture problems are only in this forum. In practice it cannot be long, because unproperly set up hive will die next winter. It teaches better than academy.

Long hive with mesh floor..... it means 30 fold ventilation compared to vertical solid floor hive. Where heck that "moisture movement" is needed. First of all it is heat movement.

The hive will be really cold and build up week. In UK subtropical climate...

.

 

[Finman]

This tread worries me as some of my bees are on a very damp site. Could it be that some ventilation is required in damp sites or does the top insulation still apply. As the last post says I am looking for practical experiences here rather than academic debate (although that is very interesting).

Keep hives in sunny spots. It keeps them healty during winter and during summer.

1) reduce the wintering room to the size of bee colony.
The amount of brood in September rules, how big winter cluster it will be.

- when you prepare hives to winter feeding, reduce the room this way . Then shake the bees from extra frames in front of hive. If they are all inside in the morning, the hive is not at least too small.

2)
- Feed the combs full. Bee cap only full cells
- keep ventilation modest, that wind do not push heat from the hive.
- some guys use empty box under the wintering box, but youi may reduce size of open mesh floor too.

3)
- bees winter well with open mesh floor and with solid floor too.

- in Britain winter is very mild compared to our climate.
- Continuous brooding makes problem because it consumes food store quickly.
- You have no svere cold snaps there. It is only result of imagination.

- If you have mesh floor, do not use any upper holes to ventilate.
- If you have solid floor, use 15 mm upper hole in front wall.
- keep solid floor a little bit slanting forward that water drills of from bottom

4)
- Insulation of inner cover is needed that rising respiration air does not form condensation droplets ovet the cluster.

- if you have 4 cm thick poly hive and you put 3 cm thick polystyrene board over the hive, you will se the droplets soon on frame bars and on the surface of cover.

- I use as inner cover 9 mm thick wooden board and over ot there is 5 cm or 7 cm thick foam plastic matress. This is so called "breathing construction". Part of moisture goes all the time thought the cover. That was usual in old good days. That material is easy to keep clean with propane torsh.

Keep the hive over soil sufface about 30-40 cm.

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