Over Wintered Queens

[mbc]

I'm not going to tell you that your poly hives won't work well for you. They obviously do. I'm just asking that you maintain an open mind to what I do. With the low losses I see in my apiaries, after the severe winters that our bees must endure, why would I invest a fortune in switching to poly? I can make timber hives from locally harvested trees, by local workers and sawed by local mills, while if I switch to poly, I have to support the oil cartel. Why would I ever want to do that with the low losses and excellent honey crops produced?

Just sayin'[/QUOTE]

 

[Poly Hive]

I was not actually making a poly point, I was making the point that the climate you operate in is VERY different from ours. Yes your winters are much colder, but it is a dry cold and that makes a huge difference. I was colder at +2C close to Aberdeen the day after I was unable to make snowballs at Niagara Falls at -18C

You see Mr Palmer that many here read American forms and tend to forget the climatic differences which frankly are massive.

I point the difference out now and again to highlight that what works well in one climate may well not work so well in ours.

I remember buying an American book on comb honey production and thinking hang on this guy is reducing a three Langstroth brood box colony into one BB and then... when my bees at the time were hard pushed to fill one Lang with brood. The devil is aye in the detail and the devil will hae his due!

Best wishes for the forth coming season.

PH

 

[Michael Palmer]

Best wishes for the forth coming season.

PH

And to you

 

[Juhani Lundén]

I'm not going to tell you that your poly hives won't work well for you. They obviously do. I'm just asking that you maintain an open mind to what I do. With the low losses I see in my apiaries, after the severe winters that our bees must endure, why would I invest a fortune in switching to poly? I can make timber hives from locally harvested trees, by local workers and sawed by local mills, while if I switch to poly, I have to support the oil cartel. Why would I ever want to do that with the low losses and excellent honey crops produced?

Bees do not need insulation in winter, maybe some in spring is for advantage. This fact is however very hard for beekeepers to understand.

If bees are kept warm in winter they do not develop in spring, you in England should know this because Brother Adam proved if with experiment in your country.

 

[B+.]

If bees are kept warm in winter they do not develop in spring

Exactly!
Its just like plants that need a cold period before they will germinate.

 

[Finman]

Juhani walks on his own paths. I do not know other beekeepers who keep uninsulated hives.

I have had 10 years uninsulated hives. Bees consumed 50% more food in uninsulated hives. It means, that when bees live with sugar 9 months, with uninsulated hives they spend it in 6 months.

When I started to buy poly boxes, they were expencive. I wanted to see, do they have difference with uninsulated hives. Result was clear. When I added second box to polyhives during dandelion blooming, uninsulated hives had one box.

Yields in polyhives were so better, that they payed themselves back in first year.

Then when I moved the hives to outer pastures in June, two box wooden boxes were very heady. Boxes were often saturated with moist and the hive was 15-20 kg more heavy than polyhive.


When I started beekeeping 50 years ago, langstrot was quite rare in Finland. Hives were heavy and insulated with 10 cm saw dust walls. Yields were 15-20 kg/hive. Bees were German Black mongrels and colonies were 1/3 compared to modern colonies.

 

[Finman]

.
Question is not, do bees survive over winter in uninsulated hives. Answer is of course they do. But when I measure final goal, honey yield, insulated hives has clearly better yield.

My friend 600 yards away has insulated plywood hives. It is double wall hive, where plywood is 3 mm thick. We get same size yields. Question is then about insulation, and not about material.

When we compare to USA system in Michigan area and in Alaska, they recommend out there even 3 langstroth boxes to winter and 50 kg stores. We use mostly one box and 20 kg winter store.

USA does not have climate adapted queen breeds there. They use Florida and Hawai queens up to Alaska. Climate adapted bees are the key to succesfull beekeeping.

.

 

[Juhani Lundén]

I have done quite a lot of beekeeping consulting work all over Finland over the years and had the change to see other peoples hives. As Finman said, all of them have had insulated hives. Of course they cannot be compared to my hives, different beematerial, different location etc., but I have never seen any difference in colony performance or strength. If any difference, my hives have been stronger.
Unsuitable bees for cold climates, very much of the Finnish queen material comes from Italy, consume more in uninsulated hives. Suitable bees do not. My stock consumes 1kg /winter month. Anything above 1,5kg/winter month is a sign of bad wintering and need for insulation. Winter months= November - March.

 

[Finman]

Exactly!
Its just like plants that need a cold period before they will germinate.

I do not say nonsense, but it is quite near, that I say . Bee has developed in Africa.
Bees have day lenght based biological calendar. Even in our climate, when out temps are -20C, bees start small brood rearing in February.

I cannot understand, what Juhani means by warm winter. If bees are wintered in cellar in winter, they develop as well in soring. Cellars are often +5C.

After warm winters colonies do great in Finland. But " Warm winter" here means -5C and in north -10C winter. Vain to compare to UK.

In our country willows start to bloom at the beginning of May, and nature stops blooming 10th of August. It tells about lenght of winter.

The most dangerours to colonies are long frost period, when cluster cannot reformulate and seek for food combs. If -25C temps last 2 months, lots if colonies will die.

But the basic is the bee breed. If you buy queens from Australia, the hives will be all dead in May.

Our bee researcher had 10 anatolian hives and all were dead after 2 winter, even if they did not have brood during winter. Food consumption was huge. In Balance hive 60 kg/winter, when normal consumotion must be 10-15 kg from September to Marsh/ cleansing flight.
.

 

[Finman]

Unsuitable bees for cold climates, very much of the Finnish queen material comes from Italy, consume more in uninsulated hives. Suitable bees do not. My stock consumes 1kg /winter month. Anything above 1,5kg/winter month is a sign of bad wintering and need for insulation. Winter months= November - March.

I count winter months from sugar feeding to the time when bees get enough food from nature.

That sugar time is September to May. It is 9 months. I live on warmer area than you, 15 km from sea.

April is clearly a winter month. Soil is frozen, snow in ground and no flowers in nature.
.

 

[Finman]

I have done quite a lot of beekeeping consulting work all over Finland over the years and had the change to see other peoples hives. As Finman said, all of them have had insulated hives. Of course they cannot be compared to my hives, different beematerial, different location etc., but I have never seen any difference in colony performance or strength. If any difference, my hives have been stronger.
Unsuitable bees for cold climates, very much of the Finnish queen material comes from Italy, consume more in uninsulated hives. Suitable bees do not. My stock consumes 1kg /winter month. Anything above 1,5kg/winter month is a sign of bad wintering and need for insulation. Winter months= November - March.

We have national balance hive system in Finland, and normal winter consumption is 1.5-2 kg/ month.
None of hives has achieved 1 kg /month.

Even in +temp cellar hive consumes 2 kg food/month.

But that balance system is not good. Water soaks into wooden parts and change the results. But along several months, 2 kg/month is I would say good.
.
But even zero consumption months have been in balance hives. But it shows that rain water dries up from wooden parts. = miserable research arrangements.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

A "Beekeeping Consultant" - that is a first for the forum, as far as I know.

Juhani, may I say welcome and ask you what is a beekeeping consultant? The name has a resonance and I am rather taken by the thought of becoming one myself.

 

[Juhani Lundén]

Finman, in my reply: winter month= month they do not (in greater amount) make brood

When brood rearing is going on consumption is more, and depends on the colony strength and ability/willingness to rear brood.

The whole winter consumption (September-May) is by me around 15kg. In the November -March period no hive should spend more than 1kg if they are well adapted to wintering in north. I´m well aware of the measured consumptions of Finnish beekeepers association. It was actually them which made me realize how different bees compared to my bees most of our beekeepers have.

Consulting work has been teaching and doing visits to beekeepers, giving advice and all the knowledge I have been able to give to help them make their business better.

 

[Finman]

.
It is not difficult to see, what is better, insulated warm hive or noninsulated.
You just count the number of boxes in the hive tower. Then you count how many boxes you have extracted honey from each.

Using terrarium heaters in hive floor really taught, what means heat to the hive and to brood rearing.

It taught too, how much wind harms the build up of the colony, because heating eliminated the effect of wind.

Heating helped to the point of summer, when day temps are 17C. Above that lots of ventilating bees appeared to the entrance.
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