Over Wintered Queens

[nantmoel]

Just a general query aimed at those who 'Over Winter Queens'. My aim this year is to produce a very small quantity of F1 queens from a breeder queen, I want to over winter some of these in hives divided into 3 or 4. I know Brother Adam used Dadant hives divided into 4, using half size (length) frames in his mating hives, but also used them to over winter queens. So my question is does anyone here use National hives divided into 3 or 4? If I was to divided into three (full size frames) would there be enough 'surface layers' of warmth in the winter months or should I go for four half size frames? I know HM uses an adapted version of Brothers Adams hives, but I don't know if they are National.

My thinking of using three full size 14x12 frames is that they can easily be transferred into Nucs or even use them to increase the stock in production hives if they become too strong. Remove a frame of brood and replace with frame of foundation.

 

[REDWOOD]

I don't do that just a few over wintered nucs but I remember someone saying they only use a split hive when the queens have mated, something about queens pipping. Queens can be overwintered with a couple of cups of bees if they are kewarm and in a small enough box

 

[Poly Hive]

Of course you can over winter queens but there are risks to this splitting whole boxes and in my experience of this the queen with the strongest pheromones gains the bees and the other queens die.

Far better to invest in some 5 frame poly nuc boxes and use them.

PH

 

[nantmoel]

Of course you can over winter queens but there are risks to this splitting whole boxes and in my experience of this the queen with the strongest pheromones gains the bees and the other queens die.

Far better to invest in some 5 frame poly nuc boxes and use them.

PH

Just bought 4, Paynes Poly Nucs, but I will also be making a few wooden ones as well.

 

[Poly Hive]

Wooden ones are fine for summer work but inferior for over wintering and Queens are too valuable to waste.

PH

 

[B+.]

Wooden ones are fine for summer work but inferior for over wintering and Queens are too valuable to waste.

PH

I couldn't agree more....queens are too valuable to waste. However, Mike Palmer uses wooden equipment and his queens seem to do ok. Isn't the point that, we get what we're prepared to accept? If we breed from queens that can only overwinter in highly-insulated poly boxes, pretty soon thats all they'll be able to do.

 

[oliver90owner]

And so does Hivemaker?

 

[mbc]

I couldn't agree more....queens are too valuable to waste. However, Mike Palmer uses wooden equipment and his queens seem to do ok. Isn't the point that, we get what we're prepared to accept? If we breed from queens that can only overwinter in highly-insulated poly boxes, pretty soon thats all they'll be able to do.

What box they're kept in has no influence on their genetics, maybe slightly less hardy bees would result many, many generations down the line if weaklings survive in poly, but it would take some tom foolery to choose weaklings as breeding material and their drones arent likely to have much impact either.

 

[Poly Hive]

I have no knowledge of Mr Palmer but our dear mr H is in the deep south and I would suggest that his winters may not be as cruel s the ones further north.

When you consider the natural home of bees is well insulated, and that is their choice, not thin bits of stick, then there is a decision that they have made.

However there are those who are determined to not take on board the bees love of warmth. So be it.

PH

 

[deanrpwaacs]

I have no knowledge of Mr Palmer but our dear mr H is in the deep south and I would suggest that his winters may not be as cruel s the ones further north.

When you consider the natural home of bees is well insulated, and that is their choice, not thin bits of stick, then there is a decision that they have made.

However there are those who are determined to not take on board the bees love of warmth. So be it.

PH

Here we go . Mr Palmer . Uses split doubles . https://youtu.be/U3QlLUcT2SQ

 

[Poly Hive]

LOL Vermont??

Ok check out the geography please. Aberdeen is North of Moscow for instance. Vermont is where in relation to the UK? A fair bit to the south and a Continental climate at that.

Let's rewind 100 years ago. Bees in the UK were kept in what? Skeps and double wall hives. The WBC came in roughly then and by roughly I am thinking 20 odd years or so either way. The Glen didn't even come in until 1930's thanks to Dr John Anderson. 15 national frame BB. Then did we progress or not by adopting single wall hives?

Yes they were cheaper to build, easier to move but were they better for the bees being colder??

In my view poly gives the advantages of the single wall timber hives with out the disadvantages, and the advantages of the WBC and Glen hives with out the weight disadvantage and trust me having moved a Glen full of bees and OSR it is no lightweight. Near 250 lbs in fact.

I knew a beekeeper who had an apiary of 100 Glens by Dinnet on Royal Deeside and he built his house and ran his car on the strength of sales to Harrods.... But then he didn't have to move them you see. And he didn't bother much with inspections as the swarms obligingly clustered on a particular low branch which I suppose was permeated with pheromones.

Setting that aside please remember bees love warmth and have from tree to skep to WBC to Glen to Poly.

PH

 

[chrisb]

Vermont is effected by the gulf stream it rises to the west and flows across north before coming back south across the east bringing the cold northern currents with it, sorry but it is not relationship to somewhere its weather is effected hevily by the stream.
in this clip he explains why they have such bad weather much worse then here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFanJbaigM4

 

[nantmoel]

I have to agree with B+ about the use of wooden hives, yes we have bought a few Poly Nucs, but I have also made a few wooden ones as well. We will have to see what next winter brings, we will over winter a number of queens to see how they survive. Another thread here tells of overwintering queens in small nucs.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I have no knowledge of Mr Palmer but our dear mr H is in the deep south and I would suggest that his winters may not be as cruel s the ones further north.

Exmoor can be every bit as harsh as Aberdeen, if it chooses to be, it's just less dark in the winter.

It's a pity you have no knowledge of Mr Palmer, he's spoken at the National Honey Show and did a UK lecture tour last year. He's a very interesting, and clearly a very experienced and proficient, beekeeper.

He's on this forum too http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/member.php?u=11225

 

[Poly Hive]

I am sure he is but I make a point of avoiding BBKA events.

PH

 

[bontbee]

Is the National Honey Show anything to do with the BBKA? I thought they were separate entities

 

[Poly Hive]

No idea actually.

Please see the temperatures, so similar to the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont#Climate



PH

 

[B+.]

I feel responsible for the diversion this thread seems to be taking. I merely sought to illustrate that bees can adapt to increasingly benign conditions and this is a selective pressure that we should be conscious of. Mike Palmer has illustrated very well that bees raised in differet climatic conditions do poorly in his location.

 

[Poly Hive]

That is interesting as his climate seems ideal. Very cold dry winters, somewhat different to ours, and compared to the UK a hot summer. Lucky guy.

PH

 

[Michael Palmer]

Wooden ones are fine for summer work but inferior for over wintering and Queens are too valuable to waste. PH

Guess I had better say something, as I'm being dragged into this.

PH, my climate is ever so much colder than yours. Our winters usually start sometime in late November with snow and cold. Last cleansing flights might be then or early December. The first cleansing flight, in a typical winter, might not be until March, and some years April. We have low temperatures that you will never see. Last winter was exceptionally cold. Low temp was -37F. No flights until late March. 3' of snow on the ground. This winter was unusually warm with little snow, but we did have some cold weather, low was -28F.

I run somewhere around 750 timber langstroth hives, 450 timber nuclei in 2-3 stories of 4 frames each. I also winter my mating nucs in timber, each having 8 mini-combs.

I insulate the crown board to reduce condensation, but hives are only wrapped with roofing felt. Last winter I had a 10% winter loss, while this year, so far, I have less than 5% winter loss...so far. Winter isn't over here. Snowed twice in the past week. First pollen this past Sunday.

I'm not going to tell you that your poly hives won't work well for you. They obviously do. I'm just asking that you maintain an open mind to what I do. With the low losses I see in my apiaries, after the severe winters that our bees must endure, why would I invest a fortune in switching to poly? I can make timber hives from locally harvested trees, by local workers and sawed by local mills, while if I switch to poly, I have to support the oil cartel. Why would I ever want to do that with the low losses and excellent honey crops produced?

Just sayin'