Opinions Needed - Warre top Bar design

[Ckohl]

Despite being relatively new to this site, it is clear that there are no shortages of opinions. With that in mind (and a bit of trepidation) I ask the following:

I am trying to redesign the top bar for the Warre Hive. Here in the States it is necessary to have removeable/inspectable frames. The standard warre design does nothing to prevent cross comb. This, of course, prevents removal and inspection - frustrating the State inspectors.

Until such laws can be amended I am designing a top bar with a thin starter strip in hopes that it will help. Any experience with this approach?

If I did this correctly there should be a pic attached.

(One of the legs is designed to be shorther than the other. All my Warres were built with windows so the short leg goes on the window side)

thanks all

 

[Skyhook]

I saw a magazine article by a man who had invented a new kind of foundationless frame. It was basically a rectangle of plywood with a hole cut in it leaving about a 1- 1.5" border, then a split top bar nailed through that, and he seemed to find they built neatly in the hole. His version might be better at preventing them from linking each frame to the one below. Another way I've heard of doing this is to have each box at 90 degrees to the one below.

 

[Ckohl]

Thank You Skyhook. Interesting suggestion, however I'm not too concerned with the bees attaching to the frames below.

My primary concern is to get the girls to prevent cross comb building that incorporates multiple top bars and prevents removal of any single bar. Is it possible to direct the bees to draw comb in such a way as to allow inspectors to remove the bars/frames if they need to. additionally, would beeswax on the strip help?

 

[domino]

I saw a magazine article by a man who had invented a new kind of foundationless frame. It was basically a rectangle of plywood with a hole cut in it leaving about a 1- 1.5" border, then a split top bar nailed through that, and he seemed to find they built neatly in the hole. His version might be better at preventing them from linking each frame to the one below. Another way I've heard of doing this is to have each box at 90 degrees to the one below.

Was that the one about James Slade in the BBKA magazine?

Looked interesting, bit like a picture frame.

 

[oliver90owner]

The standard warre design does nothing to prevent cross comb.

With appropriate frame spacing the risk is reduced and starter strips are a simple aid to prevent cross-combing. The main poroblem, I would have thought was brace comb to the box sides.

I am designing a top bar with a thin starter strip

Nothing new in that. Used by many KTBHers and foundationless framed-hive operators.

Your addition of part-sidebars is a bit questionable. Why not go full length and add a bottom bar as well while you are at it? It then becomes an 'almost Langstroth' with nadiring instead of supering.

Warre would have used 'Warre' sizes and thickness of materials for his conditions and types of bee.

I've never tried nadiring my Nationals, but I dare say it would work if I were to put my mind to it. It is more natural than confining the brood to a bottom box, but like many innovations, variations and modifications, the most common choice in use is usually the easiest format in general.

I reckon there are enough choices already in exixtence without the need to design anything really new. I would advise searching the net for other Warre users in the same predicament as you.

 

[Dishmop]

I used to have Warre hives.

First got occupied by a swarm before I had a chance to put any kind of starter foundation strip on the bars... Didnt cause any problems for them. They filled most of the box with comb within a few days.

Later I used strips of ply and ran the saw down the centre from one end but not all the way along. Cut a strip of foundation, wedge the saw cut open and slip the foundation into the slit. Nip the open end up somehow, screw or glue, and the strip is held quite securely. You will find adding some kind of side bars worth while. You can then pull the "frames" out if you want. Slide a kitchen pallet knife down the sides to seperates any comb stuck the the sides of the box.

 

[ratcatcher]

Despite being relatively new to this site, it is clear that there are no shortages of opinions. With that in mind (and a bit of trepidation) I ask the following:


. Any experience with this approach?
l

should not be any different to how I set up my top bars

and in use with bees building comb

http://youtu.be/EoYAgLScy1M

 

[Dishmop]

We know that if a QE wasnt used that the queen would lay eggs where ever she wanted which is not what honey producers want. Other than that they dont want to dig the brood out when extracting it also makes the comb dirty, so any honey put into those used cells will be darker or whatever.

Bees naturally start from the top. They have to. First comb made would be filled with brood and food. Later when more room is available the brood laying will move downwards and food stored upstairs, but also downstairs if there is room. From what I have seen in my obs hive, the downstairs food is not often capped and it is that which is eaten first, after brooding has ended.
In my obs hive at the moment 90% of the bees are downstairs on frames empty of anything. The other 10% are upstairs having a nibble, after which I pressume they will go back down again. They are "going up" to the stores, but they dont stay there as might be assumed from references to moving up to the stores for the winter cluster.
So far half way thro the winter they have eaten only about 10% of what they had at the begining of October. Going by what happened last year they wont start on the food consumption big-time until the weather is good enough for them to start foraging, and they then fill up thier tanks to keep their engines going.

Bees in Warre hives work in the same manner as in any other type of hive, or tree or dustbin, but the QE stop brood being mixed with the crop that beeks want for themselves.
Rab said:-

I've never tried nadiring my Nationals, but I dare say it would work if I were to put my mind to it. It is more natural than confining the brood to a bottom box,

as you say, its more natural but you would end up with dirty comb and probably some brood when you wanted to take any crop off, and I doubt you want that.

 

[Skyhook]

We know that if a QE wasnt used that the queen would lay eggs where ever she wanted which is not what honey producers want. Other than that they dont want to dig the brood out when extracting it also makes the comb dirty, so any honey put into those used cells will be darker or whatever.

Bees naturally start from the top. They have to. First comb made would be filled with brood and food. Later when more room is available the brood laying will move downwards and food stored upstairs, but also downstairs if there is room. From what I have seen in my obs hive, the downstairs food is not often capped and it is that which is eaten first, after brooding has ended.
In my obs hive at the moment 90% of the bees are downstairs on frames empty of anything. The other 10% are upstairs having a nibble, after which I pressume they will go back down again. They are "going up" to the stores, but they dont stay there as might be assumed from references to moving up to the stores for the winter cluster.
So far half way thro the winter they have eaten only about 10% of what they had at the begining of October. Going by what happened last year they wont start on the food consumption big-time until the weather is good enough for them to start foraging, and they then fill up thier tanks to keep their engines going.

Bees in Warre hives work in the same manner as in any other type of hive, or tree or dustbin, but the QE stop brood being mixed with the crop that beeks want for themselves.
Rab said:-


as you say, its more natural but you would end up with dirty comb and probably some brood when you wanted to take any crop off, and I doubt you want that.

The 'dirty comb' idea is a myth. The fact is the bees clean out cells between uses. ITLD reports having used 30 year old brood comb in the past, and if that were not the case, he would have had bees the size of ants. Most of the darkening is propolis.

You couldn't use a QE with the warre principle- not a principle I'm in favour of, but each to their own.

.

 

[Skyhook]

Thank You Skyhook. Interesting suggestion, however I'm not too concerned with the bees attaching to the frames below.

My primary concern is to get the girls to prevent cross comb building that incorporates multiple top bars and prevents removal of any single bar. Is it possible to direct the bees to draw comb in such a way as to allow inspectors to remove the bars/frames if they need to. additionally, would beeswax on the strip help?

Worth thinking about though. Still not easy to lift a comb out if it's welded to the frame below, you are likely to be left holding a top bar.

 

[Dishmop]

Most of the darkening is propolis.

well its not clean then is it.

 

[oliver90owner]

makes the comb dirty, so any honey put into those used cells will be darker

and

Most of the darkening is propolis.

Sorry, but what twaddle.

Darkened honey? A posters have clearly never heard of cocoons?

 

[Dishmop]

You couldn't use a QE with the warre principle

Not that I mentioned using a QE with the Warre principle, you could, although assuming the QE was under the top box, when you removed that box you therefore then have to move the QE down so that its under the next box which then becomes the new top box, and in doing so you also have to ensure that the queen is under the QE.
If you were using the Warre principle on hives with frames,(in whatever design of hive) any boxes removed from the top for crop will have been used for several brood cycles and is likely to be nearly black, and you wouldnt want to use it again because by the time it reached the top of the hive again and its time came for removal for crop, well, it wouldnt look too pretty would it.
So all in all using a QE with the Warre principle would be a waste of time because as its natural for the bees to work downwards anyway, new brood is downstairs and the food upstairs and therefore the Warre principle is not that much different to any other honey crop harvesting. With either method you always only take the honey from the top, the difference being that Warre principle honey is from frames or comb that has been used for brood, whether you used a QE or not.
The Warre principle is that there are three or more boxes and because the bees work downwards you continually give them more space for brood by adding space at the bottom of the colony, as that brood laying moves down so will the amount of space available for food storage from the top downwards, although when adding a new box at the bottom would probably be done at the same time as taking the top box full of crop. In theory although in practice not practical, you could just keep adding as many boxes as you wanted if you had a cherry picker or Hi-ab.
The Warre principle does use an interesting method of doing splits, (although I cant remember the exact sequence at the moment,) which is very simple because all the boxes are the same size and you are using 2 or more of what are basically the brood boxes.

 

[Dishmop]

makes the comb dirty, so any honey put into those used cells will be darker

and

Most of the darkening is propolis.

Sorry, but what twaddle.

Darkened honey? A posters have clearly never heard of cocoons?

Do you extract honey from comb that has been used for brood?

 

[Ckohl]

Ratcatcher - great video, and yes, yours is a very similar design. Do the side bars of your frames sit against the walls of your hive? If so, do the bees propolize them to the hive body over time?

Thank you for posting.

Ck

 

[tonybloke]

well its not clean then is it.

EVERY SURFACE in a hive will be coated with propolis, at a molecular level

 

[Skyhook]

makes the comb dirty, so any honey put into those used cells will be darker

and

Most of the darkening is propolis.

Sorry, but what twaddle.

Darkened honey? A posters have clearly never heard of cocoons?

Twaddle yourself.

I have heard of cocoons. The faeces that would otherwise make the honey dirty, is trapped between the cell wall and the cocoon, which is propolised before re-use. They are what would reduce the size of the cells to nothing over time were they (along with faeces) not removed by the bees when they start to build up.

I was referring to the cells becoming darker, not the honey.

 

[Ckohl]

Tony bloke - spot on my friend. My reason for asking about the propolis is that here in the states the gvt inspectors need to be able to remove the frames. The design pictured has the legs of the frames 1 cm away from the walls to make them "removeable"(yes, that's right, a Yank is using the metric system)

I'm not crazy about using these types of frames but I'd be more upset if an inspector ordered my hives destroyed.

Bob's your uncle!

 

[Little John]

Hello Ck - just wondered - are you aware that there are 3 types of Warre ?

Fixed Combs - Warre's term for combs suspended from Top Bars. Internal hive dimensions = 300mm

Frames - conventional 4-sided. Internal hive dimensions = 335mm. Might be the best option for compulsory inspections ?

Open Frames - frames without the bottom bar, but with full height 36mm wide side-bars (same as the Top Bar spacing), thus forming a 'double skin' to the hive wall. Internal hive dimensions = 350mm.

You may already know this of course, but thought I'd chuck it in for those who may not appreciate what variations exist.

LJ

 

[Madge]

Thanks for chucking that in, LJ - useful information about the different sizes.
Kitta