oh dear

[domino]

I am not deriding it. I like honesty about failure. I just wish that certain high profile beekeepers were as honest. But then they are likely to have fewer avid followers..

My experiences of newbies starting with TBHs is they start with enthusiasm, no practical experience and an aversion to joining any association due to the gospel preached that frames are evil... and then lose all their bees over winter.

I stopped supplying TBH nucs to TBH newbies in 2013 for that very reason...

I think this is the darker side to the 'natural' beekeeping movement which is motivated by a very cynical marketing technique.

Prior to the 1990s treatments in hives weren't as prevalent as they are now because varroa wasn't here. Bees had happily lived in framed hives for the proceeding 150 years without any issues. Varroa required management and some of those management techniques use various chemicals.

In the proceeding 150 years they had lived in framed hives with zero issues. As far as I can tell there is no actual evidence that one wooden box you keep bees in is any more beneficial to bees than any other made from the same material.

If you want to a sell a product you need to convince people it's better than the other ones and labelling it revolutionary and natural is a very powerful marketing device. But, if you want to label it as revolutionary you need to attack the status quo and the worst you can make it look the better for you.

This is a technique utilised with great success by some in the ‘natural beekeeping movement’ who have painted framed hives as concentration camps for bees and the BBKA as the guards. Despite the glaring contradiction that top bar hives use a management technique based on frames.

It’s been a very successful tactic. These people have sold lots of books, courses and etc. The negative aspect is the have created this island of beekeepers who see other beekeepers as enemies.

I’m a beekeeper, I monitor my bees and intervene if I believe I need to for the benefit of my bees. If you keep bees a different way that’s great, we can exchange ideas and may learn something.

It’s a shame that cynical business people have created this unnecessary barrier between beekeepers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am not deriding it. I like honesty about failure. I just wish that certain high profile beekeepers were as honest. But then they are likely to have fewer avid followers..

not deriision just emphasising the point.Must have had some guts to publish something of that kind on a site where the findings would not be that welcome.

I think this is the darker side to the 'natural' beekeeping movement which is motivated by a very cynical marketing technique.

Prior to the 1990s treatments in hives weren't as prevalent as they are now because varroa wasn't here. Bees had happily lived in framed hives for the proceeding 150 years without any issues. Varroa required management and some of those management techniques use various chemicals.

In the proceeding 150 years they had lived in framed hives with zero issues. As far as I can tell there is no actual evidence that one wooden box you keep bees in is any more beneficial to bees than any other made from the same material.

If you want to a sell a product you need to convince people it's better than the other ones and labelling it revolutionary and natural is a very powerful marketing device. But, if you want to label it as revolutionary you need to attack the status quo and the worst you can make it look the better for you.

This is a technique utilised with great success by some in the ‘natural beekeeping movement’ who have painted framed hives as concentration camps for bees and the BBKA as the guards. Despite the glaring contradiction that top bar hives use a management technique based on frames.

It’s been a very successful tactic. These people have sold lots of books, courses and etc. The negative aspect is the have created this island of beekeepers who see other beekeepers as enemies.

I’m a beekeeper, I monitor my bees and intervene if I believe I need to for the benefit of my bees. If you keep bees a different way that’s great, we can exchange ideas and may learn something.

It’s a shame that cynical business people have created this unnecessary barrier between beekeepers.

And remember the Kenyan (Now African) top bar hive was designed for a certain purpose, bee species and continent (the name may be a liddle clue ) and had nothing to do with being 'revolutionary' or 'natural'

 

[Firefly]

And remember the Kenyan (Now African) top bar hive was designed for a certain purpose, bee species and continent (the name may be a liddle clue ) and had nothing to do with being 'revolutionary' or 'natural'

I think the main objective in its original design was to support improved management of bees in a situation where money, carpentry skills and woodworking equipment are all inadequate to support true moveable frame hives

That's improved management compared to a hollow log

In his book on bee-keeping in Africa, Peter Paterson (who had a hand in their original design) says that he thinks the sloping sides of Kenya TBH - designed to reduce the extent to which comb is attached to the hive side - is only necessary with African strains, and that European bees are just as happy with a standard box shape. I have not heard anyone else say that

 

[pargyle]

Yes, treatment free and horizontal tbh's only lead to a grizzly death to bees in my experience.

It was the apparent high mortality rate of TBH's over winter that put me off - coupled with the fact that, certainly for a beginner, they are harder to inspect.

I think, now, that I would cope with a TBH - However, I believe one of the overriding factors in winter failure stem from the TBH designs/plans which have been generally available on the internet. These often show thin timber sections with roofs that are little more than a thin sheet to keep the rain off the top bars. I rapidly realised that isolation starvation in a TBH was more prevalent and could only be the result of the bees being unable/unwilling to traverse the hive and that this had to be partly the result of the design ~ Which, I recognise, was originally conceived for climates that are significantly warmer than the UK.

There are successful TBH beekeepers I know that are very careful to re-locate the colony and stores within the hive prior to winter and who practice the same insulation techniques as many of us on this forum do. This seems to reduce the winter losses in TBH hives to the sort of level more conventional hives produce.

Personally, I would like to try a TBH now ... but it would be more robust in construction, well insulated and probably with vertical sides ... Hang on a minute ... apart from the frames isn't that what I have now ?

 

[Fritillary]

I think the main objective in its original design was to support improved management of bees in a situation where money, carpentry skills and woodworking equipment are all inadequate to support true moveable frame hives

- Yes, as in: where I live!
(But where also good thick wood and extra insulation have been available.)

 

[madasafish]

It was the apparent high mortality rate of TBH's over winter that put me off - coupled with the fact that, certainly for a beginner, they are harder to inspect.

I think, now, that I would cope with a TBH - However, I believe one of the overriding factors in winter failure stem from the TBH designs/plans which have been generally available on the internet. These often show thin timber sections with roofs that are little more than a thin sheet to keep the rain off the top bars. I rapidly realised that isolation starvation in a TBH was more prevalent and could only be the result of the bees being unable/unwilling to traverse the hive and that this had to be partly the result of the design ~ Which, I recognise, was originally conceived for climates that are significantly warmer than the UK.

There are successful TBH beekeepers I know that are very careful to re-locate the colony and stores within the hive prior to winter and who practice the same insulation techniques as many of us on this forum do. This seems to reduce the winter losses in TBH hives to the sort of level more conventional hives produce.

Personally, I would like to try a TBH now ... but it would be more robust in construction, well insulated and probably with vertical sides ... Hang on a minute ... apart from the frames isn't that what I have now ?

Mine are all insulated with hinged roofs.

A non hinged roof on a big TBH (4 foot) is impossible to lift and handle if it's at all heavy.. Even grasping both ends is a real stretch.

The design of teh junction where the topbars meet the sides is prone to gaps if there is any wear on the bars due to hive tool usage - which lets in wasps..

A simple boxed in side solves that issue..

I suspect the plans used in the UK were never really tested in anger in a UK winter .

I don't bother rearranging combs prior to or during winter: just leave all or most of stores and extract in spring.
Depends on bees but I have one hive (only) where comb breakages are frequent.... a real pia..

 

[pargyle]

Mine are all insulated with hinged roofs.

A non hinged roof on a big TBH (4 foot) is impossible to lift and handle if it's at all heavy.. Even grasping both ends is a real stretch.

The design of teh junction where the topbars meet the sides is prone to gaps if there is any wear on the bars due to hive tool usage - which lets in wasps..

A simple boxed in side solves that issue..

I suspect the plans used in the UK were never really tested in anger in a UK winter .

I don't bother rearranging combs prior to or during winter: just leave all or most of stores and extract in spring.
Depends on bees but I have one hive (only) where comb breakages are frequent.... a real pia..

Yes ... I think you have it right.... particularly where you live and your microclimate ....

I'm interested in how your top bars sit ... do the sides of your hives extend upwards above or level with the ends of the topbars ?

One of the issues I had with TBH was the fact the the top bars sit on top of the hive sides and the potential problems that provides - I had thought about putting a hinged 'flap' on the top of the hive walls that would hinge down and give access to the ends of the top bars for inspections in order to solve the problem of breaking the propolis seal which the bees seem to love creating in TBH at the top. Never put this into practice, just theoretical for the day when I DO end up having a TBH.

 

[madasafish]

View of side/top bar interface...

http://tinyurl.com/m4spccf

 

[Fritillary]

Yes! That looks familiar! I decided to make hook-on battens for along the tops of the sides - detachable so that I could more easily handle the top bars when inspecting (tho the battens admittedly come adrift a bit too easily...) And also a deep roof frame, which sits on the tops of the legs over the lot, so that the pitched roof allows for feeders if needed and insulation. I should try a hinged roof with the next one - I can't reach from one end to the other!

Also I learned I should leave followers/spacers at each end of the hive so that I could lift them out in order to move the first end bar aside when opening up. Other tweaks I would like to make I think. That's where it would have helped at the outset to know someone who was already using a top bar.

Reassuring to hear that some others don't worry about reorganising combs etc inside the hive for the winter. I've been kicking myself for, again, this winter, not closing up one colony's space enough - or so I thought. I guess (full) comb provides some insulation anyway but thought I should have closed them up - which also makes it easier to locate a slot for a feeder above them in advance, in case.

 

[pargyle]

View of side/top bar interface...

http://tinyurl.com/m4spccf

Thanks M ... that makes sense - dead easy to prise the bars up from the end as well. You use the same triangular timber starter strips that I use on my frames as well ... P

 

[philipm]

All this and I thought TBH were supposed to be minimum intervention! Oh well don't always believe what you read.

 

[madasafish]

All this and I thought TBH were supposed to be minimum intervention! Oh well don't always believe what you read.

They can be minimum intervention.

Just ensure you clean the hives out each spring and have a new colony ready to rehive in the TBH...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks M ... that makes sense - dead easy to prise the bars up from the end as well. You use the same triangular timber starter strips that I use on my frames as well ... P

the same concept as I used out in Lesotho really - no time or tools to do any fancy finishings so the natural angle of the sides meant the top bars rested on the 'corner' of the side panels therefore minimum area of contact (á lá Maisie's runner less sides on their national boxes) - no side extensions so you just remove the 'roof' and you have a little gap to get your hive tool under the bars.
I didn't take enough close up photos of the hive to be honest (well, it was a little embarrassing and I do have a reputation to maintain! ) think I just managed to capture the essence of it in the ones attached though.I just used saw cut channels on all the top bars out there - again, only because it wa less work than trying to make triangular starter strips (and the government supplied free wax for starter strips anyway if you wanted them)

Oh - and no fancy insulation or any of that mullarkey - where i was I'd say the winters were worse than over here, but the bees coped. Had a message passed to me last month that they'd had their first 'summer' harvest including honey off the St David's day swarm from last year

All this and I thought TBH were supposed to be minimum intervention! Oh well don't always believe what you read.

That's just something the dyed in the wool 'natural' catch and release crowd would have you believe - in Africa, yes, but you are talking a different sub-species out there and too much interference would have the bees packing their bags en masse and absconding to find somewhere with more peace and quiet. (maybe someone should point out this fact to them that responsible beekeepers will look into their hives at regular intervals )

 

[pargyle]

well, it was a little embarrassing and I do have a reputation to maintain! )Had a message passed to me last month that they'd had their first 'summer' harvest including honey off the St David's day swarm from last year

That's just something the dyed in the wool 'natural' catch and release crowd would have you believe - in Africa, yes, but you are talking a different sub-species out there and too much interference would have the bees packing their bags en masse and absconding to find somewhere with more peace and quiet. (maybe someone should point out this fact to them that responsible beekeepers will look into their hives at regular intervals )

Well ... your reputation is now completely in tatters ... it's only a short step to a TBH in the association apiary ... well insulated against that Welsh weather and managed properly ...

But, seriously, you are right - a lot of 'damage' has been done to the perception of beekeepers who walk a bit on the wild side by the idiots that just follow blindly the bigger idiots who say you can build a TBH in a weekend and chuck some bees in it and then collect your honey in summer ... there's loads of them on You Tube and in certain climates and varroa free areas they can probably get away with it (for a while).

Unfortunately TBH and irresponsible are two words that, along the way, seem to have got linked together by some less open minded conventional beekeepers. It's a pity because a TBH is a cheap and simple hive to make and it's quite an effective way to keep a couple of colonies of bees in the garden - get a modest honey crop with very little equipment required. With a bit of good swarm management you can sell a couple of TBH nucs every year and this more than pays for the hobby. With a bit of planning you could even spend a season teaching next year's nuc customers how to build and manage their own TBH before you sell them a nuc ... responsible all round ?

As MDF says ... not the easiest hive to manipulate but there is something really organic about seeing and handling completely natural comb in a well run TBH and I have to say, in the ones that I've been involved with, the bees in a TBH are very relaxed and I wonder if it's something to do with the fact that, in a TBH, they really are doing what they want to do with very little guidance from the beekeeper ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well ... your reputation is now completely in tatters ... it's only a short step to a TBH in the association apiary ... well insulated against that Welsh weather and managed properly ...

well, someone has tentatively offered us a 'coffin hive' (tentative, as in attempting to hand feed a lion with toothache tiny morsels of steak held between thumb and forefinger) I don't think we'll accept although two of our beginners are actually TBH keepers and are eager to be taught how to keep them properly in said boxes

 

[pargyle]

well, someone has tentatively offered us a 'coffin hive' (tentative, as in attempting to hand feed a lion with toothache tiny morsels of steak held between thumb and forefinger) I don't think we'll accept although two of our beginners are actually TBH keepers and are eager to be taught how to keep them properly in said boxes

You can do it .... Beekeeper ... Lion tamer .... UK top bar guru ... there's another career waiting for you ....

 

[beeno]

well, someone has tentatively offered us a 'coffin hive' (tentative, as in attempting to hand feed a lion with toothache tiny morsels of steak held between thumb and forefinger) I don't think we'll accept although two of our beginners are actually TBH keepers and are eager to be taught how to keep them properly in said boxes

Go for it Jenkins. You do have the credentials with your African experience to heal the chasm between conventional beeks and TBH keepers. I know it is only a box, but hey ho it is the little things in life!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but hey ho it is the little things in life!

As SWMBO keeps telling me

 

[Tom Bick]

Personally, I would like to try a TBH now ... but it would be more robust in construction, well insulated and probably with vertical sides ... Hang on a minute ... apart from the frames isn't that what I have now ?

Sounds rather familiar.

You could do what I did last year and make triangular frames for the conventional tbh design if their is one. The frames worked great and saved time on inspections. I have run my tbh for three years now and it was going for a year previous with the customer I made it fore but I fear my time with it is coming to an end as time restraints means I won't be able to enjoy it as much as I have.

 

[Pete D]

Had my first encounter with a 'bare foot beekeeper' (her words) today.
She lives in the next village. Has kept bees for 10 years, between 2 and 6 colonies. Her numbers vary every year as the swarms often make it through but her resident colonies often die out over winter. Never treated for anything, doesn't feed at all, not on bee base never seen a bee inspector, no swarm control, when her boxes are full she just lets them go and find a nice home somewhere. She does harvest honey and sells it.
Its what natural beekeeping is all about, letting the bees do what nature intended, live, die, swarm, starve.

I asked her about joining the local association, not interested because we have differing viewpoints on what is best for the bees.

Not a problem any more, her last remaining hive has dwindled and died out. Nosema would be my guess as the front of the hive, top bars of frames and even the faces of the combs I could get out were covered in crap.

New problem is asking her not to just leave the hives as is for a nice healthy swarm to come along in the summer, its what she normally does.
Even asked me if I get a swarm could I let her know.

So from 6 hives to 0 in 4 months, happened before apparently about 3 or 4 years ago, but normally 2 or 3 survive.