Not using queen excluder - didn't seem to work

[beesleybees]

Hi guys,

Last year I read a lot about the pros of not using a queen excluder do this year I decided to tr it on a bs nation give that I have that had currently just a brood box and a super. I knew there was maybe a chance she would start laying in the super, but I was ok with this as if she needs more laying space then so be it (no pun intended)

On checking them this week, they have built a load of drone comb at the bottom of the super frames onto the top of the brood frames and made it a bit of a mess. It's a bit of a waste with all the effort that they have gone too to construct the drone comb and the eggs just to be tossed away. What have I done wrong as I and this technically brood and a half??

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi guys,


On checking them this week, they have built a load of drone comb at the bottom of the super frames onto the top of the brood frames and made it a bit of a mess.

Have you got the frames aligned with each other?
Sounds not.
When I have to run brood and a shallow I make sure the shallow frames are on Hoffman spacers and that the shallow has a dummy board. That way the frames are properly aligned.

Check the drones for varroa while you're there by the way

 

[For want of a better word]

Looks as if they want to produce drones... or a drone layer?

I now always add a frame of drone comb to the brood box... as said by E 1/2 B alignment may be the problem... however you could put your super frames into a brood box and go double brood, having some nice natural comb as a bonus?


Yeghes da

 

[snelgrove]

You are on brood and a half, a brood box and a super for laying. Most colonies build brace comb between boxes, seams they don't like the brood nest split in two. Scape it away during each inspection, as the season progressives they don't do it as much.

 

[enrico]

You haven't really done anything wrong. Yes, you are now on brood and a half. They clearly wanted to build drones and the best place for them is at the bottom of frames where there is enough space. I find that if you turn the super at right angles to the brood box then that stops this extra comb that they build as there is not a load of spare room if the frames are not aligned. Some will tell you that it slows down their natural build up but I have never noticed a difference. It also stops them sticking the frames together so that when you lift the top one the bottom one comes up too. If you continue without a QE then eventually she will stop laying in the supers above. If you decide to go back to a QE over the brood and a half then I find it easier with the 'half' on the bottom!
E

 

[Finman]

.o
Basic question is, is the queen so good layer that it is able to lay in two boxes. Such queens must be well selected. When queen becomes older, its laying becomes smaller.

Queen acts however so that it rises to lay upstairs, where is warm.

What kind of laying that hive has in lower box? How many frames?

 

[snelgrove]

.
Basic question is, is the queen so good layer that it can lay in two boxes. Such queens must be well selected. When queen becomes older, its laying becomes smaller.

Most queens now days are easy capable of laying on brood and a half British standard. Saying that nice to have a queen happy in a single brood

 

[Finman]

Most queens now days are easy capable of laying on brood and a half British standard. Saying that nice to have a queen happy in a single brood

Most yes, but like I have good layers when I test them in first summer, and one year old, the queen may loose its good laying capacity during winter.

Individuals may be what ever.

I bought Norton's queens from Cyprus. It seemed that one Langstroth was enough to them.

I do not like at all one box layers.

 

[snelgrove]

Most yes, but like I have good layers when I test them in first summer, and one year old, the queen may loose its good laying capacity during winter.

Individuals may be what ever.

I bought Norton's queens from Cyprus. It seemed that one Langstroth was enough to them.

I do not like at all one box layers.

Brood and a half is a messy system, alot of honey is stored on outer frames. Double brood is of tain to large for this part of England. If queen is to prolific for a single brood box , answer is use a bigger hive. However a queen that is happy in a single national brood chamber is a rarity

 

[Fatbee]

I'm not using a QE excluder in one colony and she's in the 3rd super. Not bothered, because there are far more bees in this colony and honey being stored evenly on each side of each box. They are laying more drone brood but having a few poorly mated queens last year the more drones the better in my view. Yes, it's a bit messier with more brace comb between boxes but so far I like it, although wimped out and put the excluder back on top of super number 3 and between 4.

 

[Finman]

.
I have no excluders. I use 3 Langstroth brood boxes. I have no meshy combs, and no too much drone combs.

When I give to hives couple gaps for drone comb drawing, bees have not much need to make drone cells here and there. I put medium foundation into Langstroth frame. So 1/3 out of frame is for drones.

 

[Honeybeeco]

Whilst I'm sure you started this brood and super without queen excluder as a means to go up and onward like the rose hive, Warre principle and so on, if you suddenly stop now and stick with brood and half, it becomes a chore more than a help.

At home I'm using up what I have from our work hives and I've ended up with 3 of my hives on brood and half and as soon as i get chance I'll get rid of the brood super as its just not helpful when manipulating the hive.

I do like double brooding as we tend to find most queens & the bees we have nowadays can handle the space, even our local welsh bees.

 

[Finman]

.
If you want 100 kg honey from your one hive, use good queens and 3 brood boxes.

Then in late summer put excluder on and reduce brood box to one or two.

.

 

[Norton]

I bought Norton's queens from Cyprus. It seemed that one Langstroth was enough to them.

I do not like at all one box layers.

But that isn't the whole story is it Finman?

Our queens were way ahead of yours in early spring.......until you fed them some honey that was full of Nosema spores and nearly killed them.

If the queen gets infected with Nosema then don't expect the colony to do much.

How do you get honey with a load of Nosema anyway if you change the combs each year.

 

[Finman]

Last winter I feeded all hives with mere sugar. No nosema signs. And varroa things were splended.
No more feeding with old honey. Lesson learned.

One reason to nosema was very late honey dew yield.


Today I opened my first 4 hives. Alltogether they had 400 kg honey.

One hive had brood frames in topmost box, and brood in 4 langstroth boxes. I did not mind. I took 50 kg capped honey off. And that hive will give 80-90 kg during this summer. I moved brood frames downstairs, lowest nectar box above brood and rest were capped honey and emerging brood. ...but I squeezed the queen.. It had swarmy mongrel origin

I think that hive had too much ventilation. That is why it was laying upstairs.
.

 

[Norton]

There is a thread on Bee-L at the moment about overwintering in single boxes. Canadian beekeepers produce very good crops with a single Langstroth brood chamber; of course with a queen excluder.

The same here in Cyprus - most of the professional beekeepers use a single brood box with an excluder that remains in place all the time. We have very good results with this system , some hives give 100+kgs in a good season. Any incoming nectar goes straight into the supers.

I do not understand why you use 3 boxes for the brood. Studies have shown that the maximum egg laying rate of a good queen is about 1,500 eggs/day. A full depth Langstroth frame has 6,000+ cells. The brood cycle is 21 days. So the queen needs about 30,000 cells to lay in = 5 Langstroth frames. I have measured this myself with prolific double chamber hives, the TOTAL BROOD AREA is always around 30,000 cells even though this might be spread over 15 or more frames. So why do you need to give your queens 200,000 cells? Do you think that queens in your locality lay more than 1,500 eggs a day? Or is it the system you use to renew the combs every year?

Regarding the colonies fed old honey. Are you sure that it was Nosema that they got or was it dysentery caused by the honeydew "honey"?

 

[Finman]

I do not understand why you use 3 boxes for the brood. Studies have shown that the maximum egg laying rate of a good queen is about 1,500 eggs/day. A full depth Langstroth frame has 6,000+ cells. The brood cycle is 21 days. So the queen needs about 30,000 cells to lay in = 5 Langstroth frames. I have measured this myself with prolific double chamber hives, the TOTAL BROOD AREA is always around 30,000 cells even though this might be spread over 15 or more frames. So why do you need "?

Yes, but it does not go that way. I get douple yields compared to professionals... But I doupt that really ptofessionals dl nog tell what they get ...

Why I use 3 langstroth brood boxes... i have not calculted anything. I have observed 40 years what good hives need.

First they need two boxes for brood. It is not full of brood. Sidemost frames have pollen and honey, because outer frames are cold.

When strong nectar flow begins, I open the whole entrance. Lower box becomes cold and queen rises to second and to third box to lay. Bees start to fill lowest box with pollen. That pollen is used to rear winterbees when bature has no flowers after 10.8.

In August I reduce volume of the hive when number of bees collapse. I put entrance on. The queen start to lay into the pollen store box, and Italian bee eate all stores off and rear a strong winter cluster.

With 3 brood box system I have no pollen in supers.
They nust be somewhere.

Why I do not use mesh floor and no excluder... Because I do not use.

Just now I went trough 4 hives on rape field. They have brought each 100 kg honey in 3 weeks.

My friend and neighbour beekeeper, 600 metres away from my cottage, uses excluders and he gets even better yields from his hves.

He critisizes, Why I carry my hives away and so far when he gets in same place good yields.
Why I carry.... My hives get in my cottage yard 30 kg honey and 10 km away they get 130 kg. We together have too much hives on same pastures.

I have learned to seek good pastures. One place gives 3 times more honey than another, and distance is only 5 km.

 

[Tremyfro]

Am I right in thinking that Finman uses just 3 -4 Langstroth brood boxes....in total or are there more boxes on top for honey? Is the method....using brood boxes...the bees funnel up through the middle and honey is stored in the side frames? But no specific honey supers? So is this mainly like a tree trunk type of brood nest? With honey down the sides for insulation and stores?
With manipulations during the summer to place brood frames back down in the lower brood boxes?

 

[Finman]

.
Why to compare Cyprus to Finland?
Our yield period is 6 weeks long..
My best hives have brought 200 kg in 6 weeks when weathers are proper. And at same time in another place hives gove nothing.

To me nothing yield is 20-30 kg. I do not get gasoline costs back with that.

 

[Finman]

.
I select strong layers and I use 1 y old queens.

An average non selected queen lay mostly only one box.

You cannot get them lay more even you give them more space.

In Finland many professionals use such system that they let queens lay freely up to July, but then then they put excluder so that hive will over winter in one box

4 Langstroth box is too small hive to catch yield. It can contain only 50 kg capped honey. What about nectar, where bees put it to rippen?

Main system is in my hives that 3 langstroth and 4-6 mediums.

Two years ago I had a balance hive which had 5 langstroths and 3 mediums. It brought 170 kg honey in 6 weeks. Best week was 50 kg.
Next door hive had Norton's queen and it brought as much honey. It was as high as balance hive.

.