No need for OA

[Finman]

I don't. I know what a good healthy hive
E

would you describe it to us?
How many boxes and how big yield

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Unfortunately RAB your eagerness to correct has got the better of you this time. What the OP said was just that:
]empirical evidence appear to suggest that natural mite drop is only a method of showing that your hive has varroa, but not that it doesn't

i.e. if you check your inspection tray for natural drop and you find mites, you have mites - if you don't find mites........... you have mites.
You had me confused for a brief moment.
You rubbish her statement and then go on in detail to agree with it.
The rest of your argument is sound (as usual )

 

[rolande]

Hi all,
Hivemaker's and now my own empirical evidence appear to suggest that natural mite drop is only a method of showing that your hive has varroa, but not that it doesn't. To make it absolutely clear 0 mite drop on the inspection board does not mean that you do not have varroa and 1 mite per 24 hrs does not necessarily mean that you have a very low infestation. What method do all you guys use to determine that your hives do not require OA at Christmas when broodless state is more likely? Sorry, to repeat question in new thread. The other thread has got out of hand and I would really like to know how you do it?

Hi Beeno, this is quite an interesting question. It sometimes appears (simply due to lack of explanation beyond 'well the bees haven't died yet') that some of the people who choose not to treat don't really understand why they're not treating. Your question may finally shed some light on the intellect which drives some of the practices that we don't hear a lot about.

 

[enrico]

would you describe it to us?
How many boxes and how big yield

Surely finman you can tell if a hive of bees looks healthy and strong? Or more to the point, you should be able to tell if they are weak. You don't have to count the bees to see this you just have to have a bit if common sense and know what your hives should look like. It is not foolproof ( and please no puns on the fool bit! I know you don't like to miss an opportunity to call us fools and idiots) but it is a real part of keeping any live thing to know if it is strong and happy. I don't listen for the mites I listen for the sound of a sick hive. Sometimes you are too matter of fact.....too black and white......maybe you have too many hives to care!!
E

 

[Ely]

Oxalic is used to prevent a strong hive from becoming weak. 'Having a strong hive that looks and sounds healthy' is no reason not to treat. Oxalic is a perfect way to get rid of mites before the queen starts laying when the mites start to multiply. Hives may appear healthy and 'not dead' in Spring, but that doesn't mean they haven't been affected at all. Build up may be slower, honey yields may be less and you wouldn't even put two and two together. There is all the benefits and every reason to treat, I can't see a single reason not to that isn't based on myth. Mites are there after Autumn treatment, I choose to kill them and reap the benefits with no disadvantages at all. Common sense

 

[Finman]

Surely finman you can tell if a hive of bees looks healthy and strong?
E

That I can do. Mostly diseseas appear in brood area. I do not know any diseses which I can determine from sound, except dead hive.

To me strong hive is in summer 6-8 langstroth boxes. But mite can kill these size hives in 3 months.

I tell how it has happened to me 2 years ago. I lost 3 giant hives so that they had not even dead bees in hives.

Each hive had a queen exhange. Weather was a bit rainy and it took time that new queens started to lay. Huge hive and huge amount of mites.
So the hives started to rear winter bees in August. All mites rushed into new brood.

Propably the hives did not get much new bees. Summer bees died during August and new bees did not emerged alive. When I opened the hives to trickle, they were totally empty, even if each hive brought over 150 kg honey.
There was chilled brood in hives which tell that they had quite few bees in autumn.

.

 

[Black Comb]

Surely finman you can tell if a hive of bees looks healthy and strong? Or more to the point, you should be able to tell if they are weak. You don't have to count the bees to see this you just have to have a bit if common sense and know what your hives should look like. It is not foolproof ( and please no puns on the fool bit! I know you don't like to miss an opportunity to call us fools and idiots) but it is a real part of keeping any live thing to know if it is strong and happy. I don't listen for the mites I listen for the sound of a sick hive. Sometimes you are too matter of fact.....too black and white......maybe you have too many hives to care!!
E

Do you listen in the autumn? With few inspections from Sept. and none from October onwards I am trying to find out how those who do not treat with OA at Christmas make their evaluation at this time of year. (Yes I know the drop after thymol is one guide)

 

[Finman]

.

What mites in drone brood tell to me

If I do not see in my 30 hives during summer, I know that I will get 300-500 mites in autumn when I treat them, - from each hive
If I meet in June in drone brood frame 10 mites, hell is near.
If one frame has 10 mites, 15 brood frames have 150 mites.

June 150
July 300
August 600
September 1200


Normally one drone pupa produces 10 living mites. So production in one cell!!!!
It is not much when you find "only 2 mites" in drone cell. They will be ten after 2 weeks.

I have learned this after hard experiences what means "few" mites.

 

[susbees]

Thymol reduces mite counts before winter bees are made.

Oxalic reduces mite count before spring bees are made.

Both reduce the mite load which, to a large extent is invisible to beekeepers.

Most adult mites in the non-reproductive stage hide on the bee between the "segments", they don't sit there on top saying yay, here I am. Varroa vectors viruses, several of them, which weaken colonies or even wipe them out. So you've seen DWV? What about the rest...

I am anti just-in-case treatments in treating animals and people. Our RBI had similar drops to us. So the system ain't perfect - but better than the alternative.

 

[Finman]

Thymol reduces mite counts before winter bees are made.

Oxalic reduces mite count before spring bees are made.

Both reduce the mite load which, to a large extent is invisible to beekeepers.
.

A perfect explanation is that simple. 2 lines......

.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A perfect explanation is that simple. 2 lines......

.

Well, three actually!

 

[oliver90owner]

Replies to page one:

we rarely inspect much after September and not at all after October...

True, but rarely does not mean don't. I usually thymol treat in September. Two years ago and we were all inspecting to a degree in October/November because of the 'heat-wave'. Don't be silly about drone brood - of course you act appropriately for the time of the year. You clearly don't read very well. If the mites are cleared out for October, they ain't gonna be a problem by Christmas - remember mites only double each month? Remember, no drone brood to help that 'increase-factor' to the top end of the range. Didn't see that I wrote a few mites are not going to be lethal or particularly damaging to the colony. I suggest you go back and read my post again - properly this time.

Varroa is endemic, no need to monitor before treatment ,get on with it ,object is to reduce mite load

True to an extent, but you can treat every week, whether required or not, if you wish too. I don't. Clearly one sentence would not do for the OP? The secret, they say, is in the detail. Keen observations make treatment appropriate and proportionate - not running round blindly treating at inappropriate times or subjecting the colonies to huge mite loadings (as per some posters on the forum). I don't treat as much as you might think - for instance I clearly very rarely treat in the winter, even though that option is there.

The check drops after a week on these six ranged from 75-200+. Just do it. Properly.


Not sure whether this was a criticism of my post or not, but if so clearly the poster, relying on one method and no other observation, is flawed and has not read my post properly. I certainly don't teach anyone anything about natural mite drops - except that if it is high you are likely into a troubled area of infestation. If that is the case, the poster needs to re-read my post properly. Further, 200 mites in January (even if this is only half the mites) is not going to be a lethal mite loading for any decently strong colony. F*S how few mites do you aim for as a maximum? A colony like that would be treated in the spring, of course.

Oxalic is harmless and is administered in less than a minute. Why wouldn't I treat?

Your choice, but treating for five mites is certainly a waste of time and does not warrant even a one minute hive opening in the middle of winter. Me? Personally, I couldn't care a jot about 5 mites - it is neither here nor there. Actually, I don't think oxalic is necessarily harmless in all cases.

Parkranger,

Thanks for that. Seemingly, thus far, nobody else has actually even tried to respond to the OP.

Enrico,

A second practical beekeeper response (not criticising the previous post, mind).

Responses to page two:

So, how do I know that Thymol was effective since mite drop is so unreliable, had no drone brood to check, and no deformed wings.

Knowledge and experience?

Finny,

A real gem of a reply, really not even helpful, so go back to your tipple unless you have something to add to the thread?

I see your point but my really strong, healthy (imo) hive had a big drop after thymol.

Clearly, you missed the signs before thymol, or perhaps you didn't actually observe throughout the summer? I don't know what you call a 'big drop' - some seem to think that five is more than enough to warrant treatment. A huge drop with thymol will still leave a lot of mites, especially if you just add apiguard packs at the prescribed intervals without taking anything else into consideration.

VM,

Much the same thoughts as for finny. Nil input, still.

Now for page three:
.
JBM,

The poster wrote 'appear to suggest that' That was the rubbish bit, as I read it. The real point is there are mites. No need for any tests, seemingly empirical or otherwise.

But mite can kill these size hives in 3 months.

Sure can, but not really. The rot set in earlier and the poor previous management seemingly missed the high varroa loading? Poster is already on record that he will not be caught out again like that. This was not a winter loss, but a bee-fart (on the part of the poster?) in the autumn. Beekeeepers need to be aware of these sorts of things, anticipate the possibilities (brood break was not taken on board, apparently). Experience counts even when you have been keeping bees for nearly fifty years.

With few inspections from Sept. and none from October onwards I am trying to find out how those who do not treat with OA at Christmas make their evaluation at this time of year.

Clearly you need to make some effort earlier in the year. Varroa generally double each month. History is important. You can't always pre-empt some situations, but most are predictable, given the correct observations at the appropriate times. You seem to be woefully short of this part of the conundrum.


I have learned this after hard experiences what means "few" mites.

We are all still learning - hopefully.

------------

So, after three pages, about two or three replies.

I, at least, got up and was counted. Beekeeping is not really for dummies. You need to think about the whole picture and the individual colonies at times. They are all inter-related. I hope the insight to actual beekeeping on a hobby scale, is enlightening to some; clearly a lot will just carry on as they have always done. But, by definition, they will never change, will they?

RAB

 

[Finman]

]

We are all still learning - hopefully.

Away learning is most difficult, and seems impossible to couple of local Brothers Grimm

.

 

[susbees]

"The check drops after a week on these six ranged from 75-200+. Just do it. Properly."

Reference to the OP, nothing to do with o90o

 

[Dishmop]

To me strong hive is in summer 6-8 langstroth boxes. But mite can kill these size hives in 3 months.

I tell how it has happened to me 2 years ago. I lost 3 giant hives so that they had not even dead bees in hives.

"Not even dead bees" = no bees in hive.

Does "Not even dead bees" also equal all bees dead?

 

[Finman]

"Not even dead bees" = no bees in hive.

Does "Not even dead bees" also equal all bees dead?

think what ever you want

 

[Dishmop]

Evidence seems to indicate that they flew away.

 

[enrico]

Evidence seems to indicate that they flew away.

Yep! I bet they didn't like the OA so they decided to leave..........tee hee

 

[Finman]

Yep! I bet they didn't like the OA so they decided to leave..........tee hee

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaw-d3r_gIc[/ame]

 

[Dishmop]

Goldilocks. Ah, yes.
I dont wish to spoil a dream but.... er.....

it's not true. Honest.

Mind you.. I did find the version in which Goldilocks wore stockings worth watching.