No need for OA

[beeno]

Hi all,
Hivemaker's and now my own empirical evidence appear to suggest that natural mite drop is only a method of showing that your hive has varroa, but not that it doesn't. To make it absolutely clear 0 mite drop on the inspection board does not mean that you do not have varroa and 1 mite per 24 hrs does not necessarily mean that you have a very low infestation. What method do all you guys use to determine that your hives do not require OA at Christmas when broodless state is more likely? Sorry, to repeat question in new thread. The other thread has got out of hand and I would really like to know how you do it?

 

[rolande]

Hi all,

What method do all you guys use to determine that your hives do not require OA at Christmas when broodless state is more likely?

Are you asking how people determine that their varroa mites don't need killing?

 

[oliver90owner]

empirical evidence appear to suggest that natural mite drop is only a method of showing that your hive has varroa, but not that it doesn't

Let's start by saying your sentence above is basically rubbish - there are mites in your hive, whatever you think. Unless you live in one of the few areas where the mite has not yet reached, there are mites there. You can depend on that so a natural mite drop of zero means absolutely nothing for the very large majority of us. Natural mite drop is just one of several indicators, none of which are particularly accurate for low infestations and sometimes not for higher ones. You can depend on there being more mites there one month later, than one month ago. Simple fact. Double or worse is the usual expectation.

I observe all through the year. Mite drop, drone brood infestation, times of other treatments (and results from those treatments), and making sure the autumn thymol treatment is effective.

Deformed wing bees denotes a likely heavy infestation, but rarely would mine get to the stage of lots of them. There will always be the odd bee with deformed wings, even in the best managed hives, but because I am confident that early summer checks and treatments are enough to keep the mites in check, I don't worry if I observe just an isolated case, I just look harder and take note, check back on previous history and watch the hive more carefully. If I note a mite on a bee, I look more closely for others; two on one bee would be a wake-up call.

I would never rely on a single mite drop over 24 hours. That is just asking for trouble.

Generally the effective autumn thymol treatment will ensure the bees go into winter with a lowish infestation that is not going to be lethal or detrimental to the colony. I know there will be mites, but that does not bother me as long as they are at reasonable levels, but I consider that treatment is the most important of the year. If I were not sure that the thymol was as effective as expected, closer checks and observations would follow, but generally if the thymol is not agreeable with the weather, I might adjust it so that it is effective. Of course one needs to be aware that an overdose can seriously disrupt the colony or even kill it. By the same token, so will an ineffective treatment, so one needs to be careful and work at it to get it right.

That is why I don't use apiguard. Some of the others are likely good enough, but I prefer to continue using what I am used to.

Even with the best of checks a robbing session on a collapsing hive can change the status quo, so one never stops looking for any signs of possible increased infestation over the expected. I will getr caught out eventually, but that is life.

If one has a hundred colonies, the problem would become too complex to watch all the individual colonies and treat each as appropriate. That is when a 'treat everything as a precaution' arises. Two hive owners are hampered by a lack of comparative results, but with a few colonies there is no great problem of keeping an eye on the situation for most of the time.

Avoiding the need for winter oxalic is a choice. I don't get drops of several thousand at any treatment if I keep on top of it.

So no special secret. Recognition that treatment will be necessary in most cases at some time - and not necessarily in the depths of winter works for me.

 

[Finman]

What method do all you guys use to determine that your hives do not require OA

There is no such methods.

.

 

[Black Comb]

empirical evidence appear to suggest that natural mite drop is only a method of showing that your hive has varroa, but not that it doesn't

Let's start by saying your sentence above is basically rubbish - there are mites in your hive, whatever you think. Unless you live in one of the few areas where the mite has not yet reached, there are mites there. You can depend on that so a natural mite drop of zero means absolutely nothing for the very large majority of us. Natural mite drop is just one of several indicators, none of which are particularly accurate for low infestations and sometimes not for higher ones. You can depend on there being more mites there one month later, than one month ago. Simple fact. Double or worse is the usual expectation.

I observe all through the year. Mite drop, drone brood infestation, times of other treatments (and results from those treatments), and making sure the autumn thymol treatment is effective.

Deformed wing bees denotes a likely heavy infestation, but rarely would mine get to the stage of lots of them. There will always be the odd bee with deformed wings, even in the best managed hives, but because I am confident that early summer checks and treatments are enough to keep the mites in check, I don't worry if I observe just an isolated case, I just look harder and take note, check back on previous history and watch the hive more carefully. If I note a mite on a bee, I look more closely for others; two on one bee would be a wake-up call.

I would never rely on a single mite drop over 24 hours. That is just asking for trouble.

Generally the effective autumn thymol treatment will ensure the bees go into winter with a lowish infestation that is not going to be lethal or detrimental to the colony. I know there will be mites, but that does not bother me as long as they are at reasonable levels, but I consider that treatment is the most important of the year. If I were not sure that the thymol was as effective as expected, closer checks and observations would follow, but generally if the thymol is not agreeable with the weather, I might adjust it so that it is effective. Of course one needs to be aware that an overdose can seriously disrupt the colony or even kill it. By the same token, so will an ineffective treatment, so one needs to be careful and work at it to get it right.

That is why I don't use apiguard. Some of the others are likely good enough, but I prefer to continue using what I am used to.

Even with the best of checks a robbing session on a collapsing hive can change the status quo, so one never stops looking for any signs of possible increased infestation over the expected. I will getr caught out eventually, but that is life.

If one has a hundred colonies, the problem would become too complex to watch all the individual colonies and treat each as appropriate. That is when a 'treat everything as a precaution' arises. Two hive owners are hampered by a lack of comparative results, but with a few colonies there is no great problem of keeping an eye on the situation for most of the time.

Avoiding the need for winter oxalic is a choice. I don't get drops of several thousand at any treatment if I keep on top of it.

So no special secret. Recognition that treatment will be necessary in most cases at some time - and not necessarily in the depths of winter works for me.

You make some good points Rab but given that we rarely inspect much after September and not at all after October it is difficult to keep an eye on things during the build up to Chrtistmas. Also, no drones about so cannot check drone brood.

 

[victor meldrew]

Usual Rab use of a thousand words when a sentence will do

Varroa is endemic, no need to monitor before treatment ,get on with it ,object is to reduce mite load.
VM

 

[susbees]

Teaching beginners that natural drop is the bees' knees especially when it's the NBU calculator so must be good is flawed.

I tested an apiary's worth of hives for a full week as the summer crop came off in 2012 (20 hives approx). Six hives had a drop of 0 or 1 over the full week. This was August. They were not treated with thymol. I prefer to learn from my own testing so this was such.

Next, they were tested early December for a week's natural drop again. Interestingly these six again scored 0 or 1 natural drop in the full week - one hive maintaining a completely clear board (no debris AT ALL...and yes, they're still alive, ta ).

ALL colonies received competently applied OA a fortnight ago. The check drops after a week on these six ranged from 75-200+. Just do it. Properly.

 

[Ely]

I treat because I can guarantee there will be at least 5 mites or so in there, which by the end of summer will be a lot more added to the mites brought in by foraging. Oxalic is harmless and is administered in less than a minute. Why wouldn't I treat?

 

[parkranger]

Usual Rab use of a thousand words when a sentence will do

Varroa is endemic, no need to monitor before treatment ,get on with it ,object is to reduce mite load.
VM

Sometimes, I might agree, but I personally found Rab's post right on the button. The point of the forum is to learn about other's experiences in order to formulate our own methods and this post was informative without ramming the measures down our throats as gospel.

 

[enrico]

Honestly? I rely on experience of what is a strong hive and what is not. I also watch the autumn drop closely which I use as an indication of how bad infestation is and vary the autumn thymol treatment if absolutely necessary. I do not use O A. I never have as I think rightly or wrongly that my other treatment works fine. I have no losses as a result of not using OA.
That is how I do it! Some of us have grown up with no varoa and had to use different treatments and methods as they have become available. It is a bit like using a computer. If you have used them from when they first appeared then you keep up with technology, if you are just given one you have no idea if it is working properly or not!!!

 

[Snail368]

There is a very good reason for using 2 (or more) different modes of treating any pest. This is that if we all relied on one method (or one active ingredient) to treat the varroa, we increase the chance of resistance developing. By using 2 different methods, (thymol and oxalic acid) we reduce the chance of resistance developing to either product in a very significant way.

Now the chance of resistance developing to either product may be small, but if you factor in the number of mites in the UK, than even a very little chance of resistance developing becomes a lot more possible. So unless we want to see the loss of what products we now have available (to be replaced by what exactly?) than we need to use what we have in an intelligent manner.

To me, this means using both Thymol and Oxalic Acid (as well as monitoring, etc).

 

[beeno]

Dear All,
Thank you very much on behalf of all newbies as in the heat of all the wrangling the message gets lost. RAB I do believe we are in agreement on my first sentence. I did Thymol in September and got less drop then than after OA before Christmas. So, how do I know that Thymol was effective since mite drop is so unreliable, had no drone brood to check, and no deformed wings.

 

[Black Comb]

Dear All,
Thank you very much on behalf of all newbies as in the heat of all the wrangling the message gets lost. RAB I do believe we are in agreement on my first sentence. I did Thymol in September and got less drop then than after OA before Christmas. So, how do I know that Thymol was effective since mite drop is so unreliable, had no drone brood to check, and no deformed wings.

This is what I am trying to get to.
For those that do not use OA what are the actual numbers they use to evaluate whether or not they have a problem after thymol - perhaps use an "average" strength colony as an example.

 

[Dishmop]

There is no such methods.

.

There's the only answer. Its compulsory. You must use it. Doesnt matter if its needed or not. Use it anyway.

Take aspirin. You might get a headache. Always wear a raincoat.

 

[enrico]

I don't. I know what a good healthy hive looks and sounds like. If it is weak it is fairly obvious to me. A strong hive will survive into spring, through summer and to the next thymol treatment........so far!
E

 

[madasafish]

This is what I am trying to get to.
For those that do not use OA what are the actual numbers they use to evaluate whether or not they have a problem after thymol - perhaps use an "average" strength colony as an example.

Well I run TBHs. As a recent beginner I have seen hive drops under thymol treatment fall year by year from several hundred in 2010 to c 70-100 in 2012. But as 2012 had brood breaks and swarming and dead queens and dreadful weather I think it was exceptional.

I have never used OA: largely because the ease of use for conventional hives does not exist for TBHs.. especially in winter when everything is propolised hard shut.

I have lost colonies over winter - but last year it was due to starvation or weak colonies going into winter with too few bees.

No signs of deformed wings but early last year there were the odd drones with mites.

I use Hivemaker's recipe and have done so since 2011..

HTH.

 

[Finman]

I don't. I know what a good healthy hive looks and sounds like.
E

gooood heavens! That is magic


and sound? You listen do they have mites?

.

 

[Black Comb]

I don't. I know what a good healthy hive looks and sounds like. If it is weak it is fairly obvious to me. A strong hive will survive into spring, through summer and to the next thymol treatment........so far!
E

I see your point but my really strong, healthy (imo) hive had a big drop after thymol.

 

[Tom Bick]

Dear All,
Thank you very much on behalf of all newbies as in the heat of all the wrangling the message gets lost. RAB I do believe we are in agreement on my first sentence. I did Thymol in September and got less drop then than after OA before Christmas. So, how do I know that Thymol was effective since mite drop is so unreliable, had no drone brood to check, and no deformed wings.

To me it comes down to how the hive is set up during Thymol treatments and although I have come to distrust the drop through the active season due to watching ants remove the Varroa from the tray you can get a reasonable indication of the drop during Thymol treatments with a steady increase and decline during treatment. I start my Thymol treatment 2nd week August and this gives me plenty of time to apply a 3rd treatment if needed.

 

[victor meldrew]

Sometimes, I might agree, but I personally found Rab's post right on the button. The point of the forum is to learn about other's experiences in order to formulate our own methods and this post was informative without ramming the measures down our throats as gospel.

Not to the point of Ad Nauseum !
I'm sure Rab would agree :icon_204-2
VM